Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association

Discussion in 'Horror Stories' started by Don Roley, May 23, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Japan
    OK folks,
    This originally should have been brought up in this section with no names other than the ones on the web sites in question. I do not want to be the subject of another vicious attack because I found this article on the internet.

    http://www.ohiotkd.net/taekwondoreporter/page5.htm

    You can find the orginization of Jack "Papasan" Stern here,

    http://homepage.tinet.ie/~kyha/KYHA.htm


    Jack Stern was found by a court of law to have lied about his claims, including recieving a Medal of Honor. This is a fact. Not a story cooked up by a conspircy of people out to get someone else.

    If you read his own site, you will see the use of many Japanese terms on a site devoted to Korean arts. It has been about a quarter century since I took TKD, but I still recall that the school is not called a dojo, rather a dojang.

    Just in case someone wants to say this is just a vedetta by a few people that can set up web pages to try to prove points, I invite people to view this article at the CNN web site.

    http://www.cnn.com/US/9612/04/medal.without.honor/
     
  2. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    I think that a few counter points need to be addressed as well.

    KYHA is not devoted to Korean arts. It is open to practitioners of any discipline. This is explained in detail on the site. Originally KYA it involved Korean arts exclusively. This however has changed dramatically since the 90's as is evident from even a casual viewing of the members worldwide and their disciplines.

    Mr. Stern was convicted in a court of law for posessing a medal of Honor. This is a second degree misdemeanor which is equivelant to jay walking or catching a fish one inch under the legal limit.

    He had purchased the medal from a flea market with the intent of presenting it to a local VFW. I have confirmed this by phone with Mr. Stern and several associates. He was unaware that merely purchasing the medal was a second degree misdemeanor.

    A former student of Mr. Stern who had a dispute with him also happened to be a Sgt. for the Broward Co. Sheriff's Office. He found out about the purchase and Mr. Stern was arrested, again for a second degree misdemeanor. The events seem to indicate more of a vendetta on the part of the former student than 'bringing a criminal to justice.'

    Not unusual, the media accounts were embellished with poetic license to say the least.

    Mr. Stern has studied under Asian Masters and hosted them in USA seminars. This cannot be disputed as there is ample photo and documentation to prove it. Individuals such as Mas Oyama, GM Naraki Hara and the Korean liason GM Gun Yi Choo for starters.

    Mr. Stern does hold rank in several organizations. A fact that even his most ardent enemies begrugingly admit. I know this for a fact becasue I have been in communication with them via email or direct phone calls.

    KYHA is a fraternal organization. This is seen as a threat to several other organizations, one of which charges $100 per Dan to become a member. Since KYHA does not charge such a lofty price it has attracted MA's from diverse backgrounds from around the world. They do not issue rank, they grant reciprocity. They do not have annual membership dues, membership is life time. MA's in parts of the world that cannot afford membership are accepted in for free, Mr. Stern absorbs the cost on a small pension.

    They are affiliated with a small Hombu in Korea. They are affiliated with WOMA in Saudia Arabia.

    Mr. Stern is considered a living legend in Europe and the Middle East and has taught MA's in 53 different countries. I have seen actual video tapes of his trips to Turkey and Saudia Arabia. He was brought there on special visa by Royal Prince Fahad and Royal Sheik Ali Al-Atig. He was honored as a dignitary in both countries, reviewing troops and training in seminars all over those countries. The media was all over him in the most positive light. And to those that are unaware, MA's in the Middle East are taken VERY seriously.

    I have seen the evidence, documentation, photos and video personally. I know Mr. Stern personally. He has hosted a seminar for me that benefited children's charities. He did not charge a fee, and he flew in on his own expense which is a big deal on a small pension. He would give you the shirt of his back and in fact has done so literally.

    In my professional opinion, many of those that attack him are heads of rival organizations that resent KYHA popularity and the quality and quantity of MA's it attracts world wide. They resent his non-political agenda. And two of them attempted to recruit me away from KYHA...at a large $ cost to me. Having caught them in SEVERAL lies, I have no use for them.

    I know Mr. Stern, he has stayed in my home, he has helped me in helping children in need with no thought for himself. He is my friend and I will not hold a second degree misdemeanor against him from almost a decade ago. Who amoung us have not AT LEAST commited a second degree misdemeanor?

    Those are my counter points and my input. Choose as you see fit.

    :asian:
     
  3. Then the entire name is deception.

    The Korean Yudo and Hapkido Association was NEVER Korean. Stern has no Korean lineages in his training. Does he even have any real Japanese lineages in his training?
     
  4. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    It was originally the Korean Yudo Association. The Hapkido part was added when Hapdiko people began joining. Then all disciplines were welcomed in. The name simply remained KYHA. Mr. Stern does have Korean training as well as ties to Korean instructors both back in the 60's as well as today.

    It is important to remember that KYHA does not claim to speak for any particular country or discipline. It is a fraternal brotherhood and nothing more. Like this site, it is where MA's of different disciplines come to network, cross-train and corrospond on ideas and projects.

    :asian:
     
  5. Actually, I have seen no proof whatsoever he has trained in any Korean system. Hell, the only proof he has of him training even in a Japanese system is taking a picture with famous people. I can take a picture with a celebrity, doesn't make me his buddy.
     
  6. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Japan
    A.R.K.

    To be honest, all I see in your post is heresay, speculation and an attempt to make it sound like it was a lot less than the court records show.

    Here is a fact. Jack Stern has a criminal record over this affair. Theories about how a police officer was out to get him are mere stories. CNN's article states this among other things.

    This is in direct contrast that he had merely picked up the medal as a present for someone else. If CNN is succesfully sued for libel, I will reform my opinion. But until that time, I trust CNN more than Jack Stern.

    All the honors and such you talk about pretty much fall under the questionable banner. Yes there is a photo of Stern with Mas Oyama. That is all I have seen for their relationship. I can not tell by the photos if Stern hosted Oyama as he says or merely attended an event where Oyama was present. Personally, I must say that his stance in one photo does not impress me with his knowledge of Japanese customs. Everything else pretty much follows this pattern of things in regards to his claims.

    What Stern says and what you say are mere heresay and may include a considerable amount of spin on the story. The criminal record and how he had to write in apology to all living holders of the Medal Of Honor is a fact.

    Again, I will trust what CNN says over what you or Stern says until you can get them to print a retraction. Considering just how serious the things it says are, if they were not able to provide proof to back it up they would be leaving themselves wide open for a libel suit. Since they have not been convicted of libel since the matter came to light in 1996, I think most would assume that they are safe in terms of their facts.
     
  7. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    Well Don, all I can say is that everyone is entitled to their opinion. If you wish to trust CNN please feel free. I know better than to trust them.

    I have seen both sides, talked to individuals on both sides and considered first hand evidence that you simply haven't viewed, nor would I suspect you'd be interested in viewing it. You have made your decision, and I have made mine.

    Peace
    :asian:
     
  8. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,522
    Likes Received:
    70
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Japan
    What is the nature of this evidence and why can you not simply present it to the world? For that matter, why not just show CNN and force an apology?

    If you can do this, show me evidence that I can see for myself instead of relying on your word, then I would indeed be interested in seeing it for myself, as I am sure many others would be. Until that time, I am sure that many of us will put more trust in the court records and CNN.
     
  9. :rolleyes: CNN is obviously wrong. I obviously trust Stern and some other people's words (based on air) than something as respectable as CNN. I heard the story was all over the local news too, are they wrong also? Which newsgroups do you trust?
     
  10. KennethKu

    KennethKu 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2002
    Messages:
    757
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If Stein indeed bought the medal as a gift to VFW, he would have negotiated a deal with the DA for a fair and equitable settlement. That would NEVER have come to trial, let alone a conviction. The excuse is BS.
     
  11. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    Don,

    Per these three questions...

    I've already listed the nature of the evidence.

    They belong to Mr. Stern as they were given to him or taken by him.

    Not my place to show CNN.

    Then simply go to the source and carefully look at both sides.

    Martial Artist,

    The word respectable and the name CNN do not belong in the same sentence in my opinion. They are frequently wrong in a rush to be first with the story. The Iraq war was a good demonstration of this point.

    Not that it matters, but ones that are not controlled by liberal agendas.

    Ken,

    Please present your firsthand knowledge of the entire proceedings on which you base your observations. Please present your firsthand research on both sides of this issue that led to you formulating your opinion. Or do you base the whole issue on reading one sided accounts? If so, your opinion is invalidated...

    Based on you using the name 'Stein' rather than 'Stern' I would say that perhaps you are not really familar with this topic at all. At least no familar enough to render comment that means anything.
    :asian:
     
  12. :rolleyes:

    CNN is now liberal? CNN gives the story for the American people. They give it how it is, and I say they're almost on par with BBC. Last time I checked, it was FOX that was a bit more liberal than the others, but CNN as liberal... You've got to be kidding me. I would take the word of a weatherman in Montana giving news on a shooting in Argentina than Jack Stern's BS. I'd rather listen to what the 500 Club (Christianity-based) has to say on Islam than anything Stern has to say. I'm a Christian, but some of the crap the 500 Club spouts is incomparable to what Stern has to say. Stern is much worse than any newsgroup combined.

    The "Iraqi War"... Evidence? Not saying CNN is perfect, no newsgroup is. But to just pass it off as "ugh, it's liberal" is not satisfactory. Is CNN liberal? Hell no, but they aren't conservative either. Of course there will always be bias in terms with the writer and editor, but it isn't significant.
     
  13. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    :shrug:

    Whatever gets you through the night I suppose......
     
  14. RyuShiKan

    RyuShiKan Guest

    These questions were asked of Ken, however, I base my opinions on several things.
    Stern admitted guilt in a court of law. That should say something.
    One: Your previous posts concerning Stern gave nothing but praise of what a great, well respected guy he was……..the salt of the earth in martial arts cicrles……..someone to be admired……………..that is until he was exposed on this BBs for being a fraud and a liar and proven so in a court of law. Then you distanced yourself from him and said you too had inquiries about him.
    I encourage anyone to please review posts made by ARK/Zhao Da Wei prior to to the expose done on Stern and you won’t find him questioning him…..then review posts after the expose on Stern and you will see a different tune sung by ARK.

    I quote ARK on 02-07-2003 11:57 AM

    Your darn right it’s not legit. I thought it was bogus then and KNOW it is bogus now.


    Two: This in fact, ARK, has been your SOP from the time you first stepped up on this board.
    You have changed the name of you art no less than 3 times but only after a member or members of this BBs pointed out that your use of certain names in foreign languages was woefully inaccurate and often down right foolish.
    Not to mention the countless times you have changed the claims on your website including claims to titles such “Soke”.
    Again, this only followed after your errors were pointed out by members of this BBs.
    In fact you swore you knew the meaning of the Japanese word Soke when in fact you cannot speak the language well enough to even order a meal in a restaurant. You swore there was an organization where your “sokeship” was registered in Kobe, Japan….but refused to give any name of the organization or point of contact. Side stepping and back peddling have been your standard operating procedure the entire time you have been here.
    So if anyone is obliged to step up and present information it is YOU.
     
  15. Robert Carver

    Robert Carver Orange Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Baton Rouge, LA
    I have been following this thread for a while, and I am amused at the latest "spin" that Mr. Stern and his believers are now trying to perpetuate, that he was convicted for mere possession of a Medal of Honor. However, there is one slight problem with that. You see, Mr. Stern was charged and convicted in a Federal court, and thus he was charged with a Federal Crime under 18 USC Sec. 704 and 32 CFR Part 507. Here are the relavent laws:

    18 USC Sec. 704 01/22/02

    -EXPCITE-

    TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

    PART I - CRIMES

    CHAPTER 33 - EMBLEMS, INSIGNIA, AND NAMES

    -HEAD-

    Sec. 704. Military medals or decorations

    -STATUTE-

    (a) In General. - Whoever knowingly wears, manufactures, or sells any decoration or medal authorized by Congress for the armed forces of the United States, or any of the service medals or badges awarded to the members of such forces, or the ribbon, button, or rosette of any such badge, decoration or medal, or any colorable imitation thereof, except when authorized under regulations made pursuant to law, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

    (b) Congressional Medal of Honor. -

    (1) In general. - If a decoration or medal involved in an offense under subsection (a) is a Congressional Medal of Honor, in lieu of the punishment provided in that subsection, the offender shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

    (2) Definitions. - (A) As used in subsection (a) with respect to a Congressional Medal of Honor, ''sells'' includes trades, barters, or exchanges for anything of value.

    (B) As used in this subsection, ''Congressional Medal of

    Honor'' means -

    (i) a medal of honor awarded under section 3741, 6241, or
    8741 of title 10 or section 491 of title 14;

    (ii) a duplicate medal of honor issued under section 3754,
    6256, or 8754 of title 10 or section 504 of title 14; or

    (iii) a replacement of a medal of honor provided under
    section 3747, 6253, or 8747 of title 10 or section 501 of title

    14.

    -SOURCE-

    (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 732; May 24, 1949, ch. 139, Sec.
    16, 63 Stat. 92; Pub. L. 103-322, title XXXII, Sec. 320109, title
    XXXIII, Sec. 330016(1)(E), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2113, 2146;
    Pub. L. 103-442, Nov. 2, 1994, 108 Stat. 4630; Pub. L. 104-294,
    title VI, Sec. 604(b)(16), Oct. 11, 1996, 110 Stat. 3507; Pub. L.
    107-107, div. A, title V, Sec. 553(e), Dec. 28, 2001, 115 Stat.
    1117.)

    -MISC1-

    HISTORICAL AND REVISION NOTES

    1948 ACT

    Based on section 1425 of title 10, U.S.C., 1940 ed., Army and Air Force (Feb. 24, 1923, ch. 110, 42 Stat. 1286; Apr. 21, 1928, ch.

    392, 45 Stat. 437).

    Section was made to cover the decorations and medals of the Navy Department as well as the War Department.

    Minor changes were made in phraseology.

    1949 ACT

    This section (section 16) clarifies the wording of section 704 of
    title 18, U.S.C., to embrace all service decorations awarded to
    members of the armed forces whether by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or other branch of such forces. (See note to sec. 5 (of 1949 Act, set out in Legislative History note under section 244 of title
    18)).

    AMENDMENTS

    2001 - Subsec. (b)(2)(B). Pub. L. 107-107 amended subpar. (B) generally. Prior to amendment, subpar. (B) read as follows: ''As used in this subsection, 'Congressional Medal of Honor' means a medal awarded under section 3741, 6241, or 8741 of title 10.''

    1996 - Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 104-294 amended Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(1). See 1994 Amendment note below.

    1994 - Subsec. (a). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(2),
    330016(1)(E), amended subsec. (a) identically, substituting ''fined
    under this title'' for ''fined not more than $250''.

    Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(1), as amended by Pub. L. 104-294, Sec. 604(b)(16), designated existing provisions as subsec. (a) and inserted heading.

    Subsec. (b). Pub. L. 103-322, Sec. 320109(3), added subsec. (b).

    Subsec. (b)(2)(B). Pub. L. 103-442 inserted '', 6241, or 8741''
    after ''3741''.

    1949 - Act May 24, 1949, covered all service decorations awarded members of the armed forces by any of the armed services.

    EFFECTIVE DATE OF 1996 AMENDMENT

    Amendment by Pub. L. 104-294 effective Sept. 13, 1994, see
    section 604(d) of Pub. L. 104-294, set out as a note under section13 of this title.

    And from the Code of Federal Regulations....
    ----------------------------------------------
    TITLE 32--NATIONAL DEFENSE

    CHAPTER V--DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

    PART 507--MANUFACTURE AND SALE OF DECORATIONS, MEDALS, BADGES, INSIGNIA, COMMERCIAL USE OF HERALDIC DESIGNS AND HERALDIC QUALITY CONTROL PROGRAM--Table of Contents

    Subpart C--Commercial Use of Heraldic Designs

    Sec. 507.12 Possession and wearing.

    (a) The wearing of any decoration, service medal, badge, service
    ribbon, lapel button, or insignia prescribed or authorized by the
    Department of the Army and the Department of the Air Force by any person not properly authorized to wear such device, or the use of any decoration, service medal, badge, service ribbon, lapel button, or insignia to misrepresent the identification or status of the person by whom such is worn is prohibited. Any person who violates the provision of this section is subject to punishment as prescribed in the statutes
    referred to in Sec. 507.5 of this part.
    (b) Mere possession by a person of any of the articles prescribed in Sec. 507.8 of this part is authorized provided that such possession is not used to defraud or misrepresent the identification or status of the individual concerned.
    (c) Articles specified in Sec. 507.8 of this part, or any
    distinctive parts including suspension ribbons and service ribbons) or colorable imitations thereof, will not be used by any organization, society, or other group of persons without prior approval in writing by the Secretary of the Army or the Secretary of the Air Force.

    Here is the BEST part:

    (b) Mere possession by a person of any of the articles prescribed in Sec. 507.8 of this part is authorized provided that such possession is not used to defraud or misrepresent the identification or status of the individual concerned.

    Other websites on the internet seem to backup what is on the CNN website:

    Mr. ARK, you may continue to believe whatever you like. My children were just over five when they stopped believing in the Easter Bunny. So if continuing to believe in what a convicted criminal has to say over what multiple other credible sources have reported gives you some comfort, then please feel free. Hopefully you are not in an occupation or position in life where your judgement (or lack thereof) could cause someone real harm.

    Oh, I would address you by your REAL NAME, but since you are in violation of MartialTalk's rules and have not supplied the required information, I will just have to go with what I have.
     
  16. RyuShiKan

    RyuShiKan Guest

    His name is Dave Shultz & he is a guard at some jail.

    ARK will never openly admit that he knowingly got rank from a dubious source.
    He and other folks that make outrageous claims to rank title or deed are now “protected” under the “Bleeding Heart Liberal Law” on MT. So basically people can claim anything they want without putting up an ounce of proof and it is up to the other members of MT to supply the evidence that they are liars, fake, or frauds. Basically unless we have them on video holding the “smoking gun” and actually confessing to their wrong doing we don’t stand a chance in hell of being aloud to question their claims.
     
  17. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    One of your errors Robert. My full name is listed in the required field for posting. It is not listed where it is not required. Funny, Rushikan's isn't either, maybe you should be erroneously admonishing him as well :rolleyes:
     
  18. A.R.K.

    A.R.K. Guest

    Once again, Robert is incorrect.

    My name is David Schultz. I am not a guard anywhere. I am a duly boned and appointed Deputy Sheriff holding the title and position of Detention Deputy and Academy Instructor.
     
  19. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    764
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free
    Question yes, pursue from thread to thread, no. Difference.

    New information on several individuals claims has stopped flowing a long time ago, instead it is constant rehashing of old stuff.



    The law was interesting. I've followed threads on several other fake medal wearers on other boards, but this is the first time I've seen the actual law. Mr. Carver, thank you for posting it.

    :asian:
     
  20. RyuShiKan

    RyuShiKan Guest


    Oh thats right.......Schultz with a C..........and your a detention "depity"...........:rolleyes:
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Search tags for this page
grandmaster jackie stern
,
hapkido association membership
,
jack stern martial arts
,

jackie stern apology letter

,
jackie stern papasan
,
papasan jack stern
,
you papasan jack stern