Korean Yudo & Hapkido Association

[RyuShiKan]

Would you rather continue along these lines?
I thought you wanted to "move on".......

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Far too much valuable time has been wasted on this subject

Don't forget memory--all this stuff is saved to disk for posterity.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
Don't forget memory--all this stuff is saved to disk for posterity.

:rofl:

 

[MartialArtist]

If you make a claim, then you prove it, it's not the other way around.

In a court of law, if you claim that your neighbor bashed your truck, you're supposed to prove he did bash your truck, not how he didn't bash the truck.

I don't care what organizations you belong to, but from all the evidence so far, Stern's KYHA is bleh.

This thread isn't about ARK, but Stern and his organization. Stern says he's trained under so and so, when nobody has heard of them. Grandmasters are pretty well known all around the world, a simple search on the internet can tell you that. Search for the people Stern has said he trained under, and all the sources lead back to the KYHA. There are a couple of exceptions, but the whole thing isn't substantial enough to be taken as proof yet, and ARK, as a representative of the KYHA, would you care to share information on how he was associated with some of the grandmasters?

Stern's dan ranks. In what did he get an 8th dan from? From his history, there is basically no way he could've gotten an 8th dan from a legitimate organization in that short a time frame. He just says 8th dan from some Korean guy. Okay, 8th dan in what? 8th from whom? Soke Fujiwara Xialong Chi-Fung Smith III? Kwangjangnim Sun-jin Taeku Park Guillermo Pasillas Khaatir Muhammed William Alpin? From what organization? Cookiekwan? The Alliance of Sokes Around the World? Or did his own KYHA give him the dan rank? Would you please straighten the thing out on Stern as a representative?

 

[A.R.K.]

Robert,

You wanna move on? Fine by me. But that means actually moving on, not wait a day or so then fire of some more snide remarks.

You wanna move on? I'm all for it. I'll lay it down and walk away without another word about it or agaisnt you. I would expect the same courtesy, from ALL of you. If it continues it will be by your hands.

Can we move on?

Peace. And I mean it.
:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

I can't speak for other people.......they can do as they please.

As for myself...........I have far too much to do off line.

 

[MartialArtist]

Anyway

http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/hof_index.html

This is one of Stern's accomplishments... Being on this list. Yeah, the hall of fame, that's awesome. Problem is, look what organization gave him his hall of famer title. Look who's in charge of it. Soke PhD Marty Cale with a 10th degree BB in White Tiger (understandable because he founded the system), American Kombat Kickboxing (I don't know about that one), 6th dan in jujitsu ( :shrug: ), a 4th degree BB in Okinawa Te (RyuShiKan, what is that?), and a whole bunch of other ranks.

He is in the World Head of Society –Heads and Founders Society of International Styles, headquartered in Kobe, Japan.
- RyuShiKan can elaborate on this one better than I can.

http://www.usmartialartshalloffame.com/pages/profcale.html - more of Mr. or should I say, Dr. Cale who majored in Martial Science :cough: :cough:

The funny thing though is that nobody even had to look. The KYHA, like any other organization with questionable doings usually have ties to other questionable sources. The people like to stick together is the saying. So the links just lead to more questionable places, and it goes on.

 

[A.R.K.]

Peace

:asian:

 

[A.R.K.]

Soke PhD Marty Cale with a 10th degree BB in White Tiger (understandable because he founded the system),

MA, this is a bit off topic, but it touches on something that Yiliquan 1 and I were discussing in the chat room a while back. He has a 10th Dan for founding White Tiger of whatever, but that is really, in my opinon, an honorary rank. Not something you 'wear'. A person should wear the rank they have actually earned, whatever that may be. The 'founders' rank can be for purposes of ownership and promoting those whom you train.

It's perhaps ok to hang it on a wall in the school you've founded but perhaps a bit presumptious to walk around wearing it so to speak.

Just a thought. I don't know anything about this individual so I don't know what he does or does not do.

:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
MA, this is a bit off topic, but it touches on something that Yiliquan 1 and I were discussing in the chat room a while back. He has a 10th Dan for founding White Tiger of whatever, but that is really, in my opinon, an honorary rank. Not something you 'wear'. A person should wear the rank they have actually earned, whatever that may be. The 'founders' rank can be for purposes of ownership and promoting those whom you train.

It's perhaps ok to hang it on a wall in the school you've founded but perhaps a bit presumptious to walk around wearing it so to speak.

Just a thought. I don't know anything about this individual so I don't know what he does or does not do.

:asian:

How do you earn a rank in your own system?

I have no problem with his 10th dan, as he's the founder. But some of his other claims are :rofl: The organization was listed on the KHYA website. Seems that all the organization the guy belongs to, Stern also belongs to, and most of the other organizations on the site all belong to each other in one way or another.

 

[A.R.K.]

How do you earn a rank in your own system?

I'm not sure this should really be an issue. If a person founds a discipline then they have that Founder status and can promote those students that want to learn from him/her. I don't see where one would need to be promoted within their own system.

For example, Mr. Smith founds xyz discipline. He receives recognition from one of the sources I have discussed in other threads. He is the 10th Dan holder for purposes of founding the system. Walking around 'wearing' the rank, in my humble opinon is not needed.

If he has rank in other disciplines then he/she can always seek advancement in those disciplines along the normal procedures.

I don't know if this is the ultimate 'right' answer, but it is one I wish to follow for myself. I choose not to 'wear' 10th Dan. I choose not be addressed as 'Grandmaster' or 'Professor' or whatever. I choose to wear a simple unadorned black belt.

As for this other fellow, I simply can't remark as I have no knowledge of him.

:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
For example, Mr. Smith founds xyz discipline. He receives recognition from one of the sources I have discussed in other threads. He is the 10th Dan holder for purposes of founding the system.

Ed Parker founded American Kenpo Karate .. no one's ever
mentioned to me that he recognition from anyone.

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Walking around 'wearing' the rank, in my humble opinon is not
needed.

Ed Parker wore hs for marketing reasons. But he would often
say "just because the stripes show, doesn't mean you know".

 

[KennethKu]

..This is called in debator's language hand-waving. There of course is not one shred of proof to anything in your paragraph. You have either deluded yourself or you are a liar. You pick which is appropriate. ..

Nice talking to you there.

NO one has contacted me in reference to my LEO background. I have waited patietly for anyone interested to do so, so that I can provide them with enough documentation and verification numbers and supervisors to choke a horse. No takers...imagine that.

No one has contacted any of the associations which recognize my various ranks...not one person....not one person. So how could any of my claims have been found to be in error? Let me answer for you, since I know you won't...Since no one has check...no one could post to the negative. Well not in any honest fashion. But honesty doesn't seem to be a big problem with some posters here in there comments...imagine that.

Facts:
1. Robert called Pangainoon HQ in Japan. Everyone knows what he discovered.

2. KYHA that you represent in Florida, is a fraudulent front run by convicted felon Jack Stern.

3. Your master instructor, DAC of Florida, claimed 6th dan in TKD but he has no idea if it was Kukkiwon/WTF or not. Anyone in TKD would laugh their *** off at such bizzare[sp] ignorance. Neither him nor you seem to have a clue about the gravity of such lapse.

As to no one has called the associations that recognize your ranks (claims of ranks), because as you have pointed out, you people joined those associations to give each other reciprocal recognition of ranks. So, what is the point in calling them?

Your buddy Robert allegedly called an organization in Okinawa [that probably doesn't exist anywhere except in his mind] to find I was not a member. Wow Since I never claimed membership in an Okinawan organization that proves exactly....zip. Your buddy Don stated that if I could show him where I stated that prior to Robert's alleged phone call he would be convinced. I showed him the exact qoute with the date and time 2 1/2 months prior to the fake phone call...not once but three times. Each time I asked him if he was convinced. He never had the courtesy to respond...not even once. Suprise, surprise. His only purpose here is to bolster Robert's sagging grudge against me.

For the record, I have never discussed with Robert or Don on any matter regarding you. Don and Robert are mutual friends. I am not part of the circle.

Would you like to substantiate your claim that the Pangainoon HQ in Okinawa doesn't exist?

The information Robert received from Pangainoon HQ in Okinawa, Japan, showed that the recognized authority in Pangainoon does not recognize nor even awares of your 8th dan claim in Pangainoon. Your failure to provide necessary information on your claim to 8th dan in Pangainoon results in the logical conclusion that your claim, until proven otherwise, remains an unverifiable claim of rank. Surely you must agree on this point. (Remember your favourite line, "Just because you say it, doesn't mean it is true " )

Problems with Mr. Stern? Fine, doesn't effect me, my rank, my training or my experience. Not in the least. I knew of problems before any poster here, and have proven it. Despite anything else, my credentials don't hinge on KYHA. As I've stated for quite some time, KYHA is a fraternal club house. I didn't get any rank from them in any way, shape or form. They recognized what I already had...big deal. Anybody can recognize me to their hearts content. Doesn't add to or take away from my teaching.

Your close association with,and enthusiastic endorsement of a convicted felon reflects unfavourably on you. It reflects either 1. you are ignorant of a critical fact that someone in your position should have known, (lack of due deligence on your part) or 2. You chose to associate with a convicted imposter with dubious moral and ethical value (poor judgement). Furthermore, your resort to attacking everyone from the members of MT, to CNN, to the Court, to the police, for Jack Stern's legal, moral and ethical lapses, does not reflect well upon you neither. It smacks the smell of " it is everybody's fault, but mine."

So what else ya got Ken? Where is all the evidence thats been uncovered? List it ALL here Ken so we can ALL take a look at it.

Well? Lets go Ken. Prove I'm not a member of every organization in which I've claimed to be a member. Prove I don't hold the belts that I am recognized at.

You have continoued to claim that claims of ranks on the internet cannot be proven. I have posted info on how most legitimate organizations go about doing just that. I personally don't believe your claim of 8th dan, and DAC's claim of 6th dan, simply because people with such high ranks, OUGHT to have known about the basic verfication of ranks. But you 2 DON"T have a clue. Why is that?

quote: You want to present yourself like you are well educated and well-informed in MA, yet you haved posted opinions such as claim of rank is not verifiable or rank is arbirary, etc. FYI, people in the MA community have long figured out how to go about in handling those problems. Yet the answers are still lost to you, as evidented by your posted opinions. How do you expect people to take you seriously, when you do not know the answers to issues that some one of your rank should have known? By being argumentative is not going to cut it, sir.


I'm not arguementative Ken, only annoyed at continually having to defend against baseless, exageratted, unsubstantiated arguements. Don't like my posts Ken? Better go back and reread the threads again. Seems like quite a few people do like my posts and hold similar or the same arguements. Funny, I don't see you attacking them for their posts in every thread ole man...imagine that. Seems alot of other people realize, and have posted that NO, you really CAN'T verify anything to everyone's satisfaction in the martial arts. Funny that you haven't attacked them for stating what has obviously gone over your head.

I have rebutted your student/master instructor in ARK, DAC. I have refuted others. I have posted info on verification of claims of ranks. If you missed them, that is not my responsibility. Please do not try to make it sounded like there was this conspiracy to "get" you.

So Ken, show your evidence that proves I don't have training in Shuri Te and paperwork to back it up. Prove I don't have training in Pangainoon with paperwork to back it up. Prove I haven't developed my own system and recieved international recognition from the organizations that I have listed. Prove I am not a member of the organizations that I have claimed membership in. Prove I am not an FDLE certified Police Instructor. Prove I'm not employed as an adjunct intructor at SEPSI. Prove I'm not a Detention Deputy. Prove I'm not a military veteran.

I've offered everything to anybody that has asked via email, PM and Chatroom. Since none of you have contacted me to get numbers and names etc then AND you have already made up your minds then you MUST have evidence of your own which proves the above in the negative.

So put up or shut up....ALL of you.

You made the claims, you have the burden of proof. Surely being a LEO, you ought to understand the concept of burden of proof.

 

[KennethKu]

If your response is going to be something along the line, "There of course is not one shred of proof to anything in your paragraph. You have either deluded yourself or you are a liar....." then please don't bother to. It will be just running in circle, again, for the 10 million times...

 

[Disco]

I have been trying to investigate proof of rank and affiliation on some for the last month. I have contacted the TKD(USTU) for Kukkiwon verification and received no response (a month). The other organizations (Judo) I have also had no response. These are the Major world organizations and I can't get the time of day from them. Makes it hard to validate or unvalidate anything.

Just for correction's sake; the burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Disco

Just for correction's sake; the burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution.

True.
However, this is not a court of law and nobody is being charged with a crime. People have been asked for proof to a claim.

If someone claims something the burden of proof is on them since they are the only ones that have the means to “prove” what they claim.

It is also easier to prove something does exist than does not.

For example if I claim that a certain animal exists it is far easier and more logical for me to show proof that it does exist than for someone else to scour the earth proving it does not.

Another example:

If someone claims ownership of a piece of property (car, house etc) they are required to produce a piece of paper, as when you are pulled over by the police while driving, to prove ownership OR they can direct the other party to some office that those records are kept.

As in the example when pulled over……….if you don’t produce proof of ownership/insurance of the vehicle you are driving the officer will most likely become suspicious as to why you don’t have any or won’t produce any. The easiest way to avoid any trouble in such circumstances it to produce the proper paper work for the car you claim to be yours.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Disco
Just for correction's sake; the burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution.

No one is prosecuting anyone here. Some people seem to willing to subscribe to the infantile argument that what they claim to be true, must be true and it is up to someelse to disprove them. That may be the rule when you are a baby. In the real world, when you claim to be a 8th dan in Pangainoon or 6th dan in TKD or whatever, it remains an unverified claim, untill proven other wise. It is up to the person making the claim to provide all the necessary information needed to PROVE/VERIFY his claim. Because it is his benefits to make his claim independently verifiable. If you are unable to provide the necessary information, then you simply have to accept the fact that your claim has not been verified. You do not get indignant about it and demand people to accept your word as is. That is juvenile.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by KennethKu
In the real world, when you claim to be a 8th dan in Pangainoon or 6th dan in TKD or whatever, it remains an unverified claim, untill proven other wise.

Let's not even go there again.............why don't we keep it a little more general just for the sake of peace on the board.

 

[KennethKu]

Surely any reasonable adult would have the basic honesty and deceny to admit to the fact that his claims cannot be considered verified on the basis of his own words alone. Has this forum sunken below such basic standard now that it has to cater to infantile members? I don't think so.

 

[A.R.K.]

Kirk,

Good point about Parker and the marketing aspect. I was thinking along the lines of simply a foundership so to speak. Also age requirements could come into play in a genereal sence as well.

Disco,

Correct. It can be difficult to obtain information from some organizations, especially in a timely manner.

Ken,

Whatever You may believe whatever you wish on the matter. It is of little concern and it is no longer of interest.

:asian: