Ki-hap in the form

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by granfire, Feb 9, 2012.

  1. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    The question about one-steps made me wonder:

    Ki-haps in a form.

    Back when I started, all of our forms had at least 2 of them.
    Then the first reform hit and only the color belts retained the yell at the move furthest north and south of the pass, to simplify the explanation as to where they were to be put.

    The yells were completely taken out of the BB forms.

    I never did see the idea behind it.
    Reasons (to me) to have a Ki-hap in a form or with a technique:
    -We are conditioned to be quiet. This gives us a rare outlet to be heard.
    -We tend to hold our breath, especially when we start out on our journey, or when we concentrate.
    You can't yell when you hold your breath. You can't fight (or run) when you hold your breath.
    -A correct yell can support a technique and add energy to it. You know what I mean, that yell from deep down, from the diaphragm.


    Thoughts?
     
  2. MSUTKD

    MSUTKD Purple Belt

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    removed the Kihop from BB forms???????? Why?
     
  3. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, it was one of the first wtf moments, not referring to the WTF...

    I don't think anybody had a good explanation either.
     
  4. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Well, what are the primary reasons for a kiai or kihap in the first place? One of them is to help you train your body to contract as many of the muscle groups as possible in the split second that you strike a target. This creates focused power as you move from a state of relaxation to violent tension, releasing the muscular contraction after the blow is completed. For whatever reason, the kihap makes the contraction easier to achieve. Over time with practice, experts don't 'need' the physiological aid the kihap provides, although there are still good reasons for it remaining such as breath control and psychological effect.

    Defined kihap points within forms frequently occur at the culmination of a series of movements where the 'final' attack is made. They are logically placed there because it is supposed to be a finishing shot, a 'killing' blow.

    That said, I don't know that I would care too much about changing where they 'officially' occur in a form. I sometimes train with a kihap on every single block or attack for the increased repetitions in focus. It can also be fun to switch up where the kihap is placed and with some ponderance, one can imagine how that might change the usage of the form, if form applications is something one is interested in. As I tell my students, do the form the way it is 'supposed' to be performed for rank tests. The rest of the time, we should freely change things around to let us become better martial artists or heck even to just shake things up from time to time. Forms aren't meant to be static, dead things.
     
  5. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    Good point about forms being a somewhat 'living' creature.

    I would also have to add that since under the system at the time one could achieve BB in under 2 years, which I would consider advanced beginner status, intermediate at best, in most cases. ;)
     
  6. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Hey, Granfire, if you're talking about the ITA or whatever it is called now, my niece made a transition a few years ago to ATA instead. It was pretty seamless for her although she had to learn new forms and other material. They let her 'keep' her belt while she learned their curriculum - but more importantly the technical differences between the two styles were minimal.

    Might be something to consider if you're unhappy with your group if the ATA is active in your neck of the woods.

    (Weird, I managed to 'blog' this post somehow. Must have hit the wrong button.)
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    My earliest training was ITF. There were no kiaps in any of the forms. Calling out the name of the form at the end was added later, as was the sine wave (which I never did feel comfortable with).
    I'm now training in a Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school. The Palgwe/Taegeuk/Yudanja forms all have kiaps.
    Frankly, the kiap "feels" right, and there are times when I'm practicing the Chang Hon forms that I catch myself trying to add a kiap (I know that many systems have added kiaps to these forms).

    Given how little direct combat application there is in forms, I think it's as much a matter of aesthetics as anything else. If we're really doing it to teach breathing and such, then it makes sense to do it on EVERY move, not just two.
     
  8. dcsma

    dcsma Orange Belt

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    The only form that I know of with no ki ahps was Hwarang part of the hyung tul system. And that was to honor the hwarangdo warriors. But the rest of the forms Hyung, Tae Guk, Pal Gwe there is at lease one Ki Ahp in them.
     
  9. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure exactly what you're saying here. Hyung and tul both mean forms or patterns. "hyung tul" and "forms hyung" both simply say "pattern pattern" or "forms forms". You could add a level of redundancy by saying hyung tul poomsae, if you really want to please the Department of Redundancy Department. :)

    Hwarang is one of the Chang Hon forms (tul is the word usually used in the ITF, or at least it was when I trained in that system). As originally developed by General Choi (and others) there were no kiaps in any of those forms. Some systems have added kiaps, however.
     
  10. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Duplicate post... ooops. :(
     
  11. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    LOL, the thank button must have been hidden. Happens some times.


    alas....
    We used to have 3 strong ITA schools in the area. The ITA sprung from the ATA some 20 or thirty years ago. However their latest changes have closed 2 of the 3 down, or they split form the group and went with another or went independent.
    The organizational context is right now of little importance. When I do get back to training I kow I have at least 2 schools backed by good instructors. :)


    But the Ki-hap thing kind of struck me reading through the one-step thread.
     
  12. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    I never learned a form that had no kihap. I have heard a lot of things about kihap over the years as to it's purpose, etc.

    My opinion is that kihap relates to aquiring the skills to seamlessly turn decision into action in accord with various adrenal levels in ones blood, cause be stress, or brought about intentionally by the practitioner.

    As to Kihap and Kukkiwon Poomsae, Kihap is placed at meaningful, philosophical points in the Poomsae, in accord with the principle of that Poomsae.
     
  13. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    Hyung (Kata) and Tul both have the meaning of a pattern, Hyung (Kata), specifically a pattern etched out on the ground, standing for the pattern one's moves along while executing a specific sequence of techniques.

    Poomsae does not mean pattern or form. It has a detailed meaning that relates to the action and shape of body movement. However, within Poomsae we can find the illustrated diagram of the sequencing of techniques, called the "Poomsae-do" and we can also find the pattern on the ground that one's moves along while executing the sequence of techniques, called the "Poomsae-seon", which has nearly the exact definition of Hyung.

    So Poomsae has expanded from it's humble beginnings as Hyung and now contains within it, Hyung (Poomsae-seon), as a part, not the whole of Poomsae.

    There is much, much more on this subject, to much to add here.
     
  14. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    how hard do you think it would be for your niece to transition to kukki taekwondo?
     
  15. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    Does it matter?

    I swear...if your lives depended on it you could not stay on topic!

    :lfao:
     
  16. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    yes it does.


    I guess it's one of those "do as I say, not as I do moments. Check out post #11

     
  17. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I was taught to be respectful. Not the same as quiet, although it can be interpreted that way by some.


    Proper meditation will fix the holding of breath issue faster and better than doing kihap during poomsae. Or better yet, do hogu drills or any of the modern training methods. That will also fix the holding of the breath thing.


    I guess so. However, it is only phase one type of energy, doing it during a form, by yourself.

    Personally, when I practice poomsae, especially by myself, I tend to not kihap. I live in a quiet neighborhood and I don't think the neighbors would appreciate it, especially during the times that I do poomsae training (early in the morning).
     
  18. Kinghercules

    Kinghercules Blue Belt

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    It seems that a lot of things are beginning to change over the years. Just from me joining this site Ive been learning and seeing ppls different views and approaches to Martial Arts training.

    My teacher (Ki Whang Kim) had taught us to use Kiai's when we practice our katas. Yes it teaches you to exhale and contract your muscles on contact but it also teaches you to Kiai when you're fighting and have made contact. This works in street fights too. You can see the surprise look on ppl faces when you Kiai when have hit them. In a way it lets them know you aint scared and you're ready to take them down. Well, at lest thats my experience.
     
  19. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    No, I mean quiet.
    Being loud is looked down upon.
    One can be vocal and outspoken.




    But not when you are training your form.
    When you meditate, you meditate, when you do other drills you do that. Forms.




    Elaborate.

    I suppose, though they probably would get used to it....


    As to post 11.
    I was asked a question.
    I answered.
    I tried to get the topic back on the Ki-hap.
    If you want to know how quickly somebody can go from ATA curriculum to KKW stuff...well, you know, PM or new thread...
    :asian:
     
  20. MaxiMe

    MaxiMe Brown Belt

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    Interesting. I'm looking at My current form (Hwa Rang Hyung)
    move 1. Left Plam heel bolck ---- With yell
    move 14. Right middle stepping punch--with yell
    move 31. Right double knife-hand block---with yell

    Facinating how just from school to school how things can be just a little different.123
     

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