Kenpo on the ground- part 2

[rmcrobertson]

No, OFK, one does not.

However, it does seem to be the case that these guys all need names like, "Vicious Spear of Death," to get through the day...and yet people laugh at Freud.

From now on, perhaps I'll borrow from Randy Newman and call myself, "Mighty Sword..."

And am I hallucinating, or did everybody on this thread pretty much agree some time back that y'all might get knocked down from time to time (or in my case, fall down...as in this one test, during which some really big putz threw me, spine first, into a bench one of the judges was sitting on...which is why I got up and chased him out the door), and it would behoove us a) not to freak, b) to be able to at least get back up?

 

[psi_radar]

Those Bullshido guys ARE funny, but they take to criticism with a shotgun rather than a scalpel. I'm not a huge fan of "Rolling Thunder," but I think the first part has some merit.

It seems like the MMA and BJJ guys rank on us Kenpo guys for not addressing the ground game, then when someone makes an attempt, it's not good enough.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by psi_radar
I'm not a huge fan of "Rolling Thunder," but I think the first part has some merit.

What do you feel is wrong with Rolling Thunder?

Thanks

 

[psi_radar]

What do you feel is wrong with Rolling Thunder?

Hoo boy. Ok, hopefully without getting into a whole new rigamarole, the first part is pretty textbook groundfighting, I just don't buy the "dance of death" part at the end. If the attacker's smart enough to get you in the mount to begin with, then they probably will hold the guard on you once you reverse them--and a good guard requires some skill and time to slip.

Rolling Thunder seems to make the assumption that your first hits/reversal will allow you to pretty much skip away, hitting as you go, which I know is not always the case. Granted, this is a technique set in the ideal phase. I can see why it was formulated as it was--"Ok, when I'm in the guard, positionally, what Kenpo technique best fits the situation? Dance of death!" [The problem with this is that in dance of death, you are working from a takedown rather than coming up from the ground--rather than trying to rise, you're slamming downward. Quite different forces happening there.]

In the most likely scenario, even if I slipped the guard I'd be more tempted to move to a leg lock, move to the mount or side mount, slam the groin with a knee or just stand up and get away. Any of those options seem more practical and possible to me.

That said, I'm glad Mr. Mills and his group are trying to address the ground game. I think as more time is spent on this--and as some instructors unabashedly crosstrain--we'll start to see more and better ground techniques generated out of the Kenpo community.

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Obviously your position(ha ha) on the subject is that you opponent will be hard pressed to get you down and then they will be rendered defensles by your minor move extraviganza. We come from a school of thought that there is no disgrace in being thrown. That is... we don't put up that little what, me, worry ? barrier that seems to permiate the mentalities of those who do stand up training. Its going to happen. Let the ground be your freind. Learn how to go right from the breakfall... or hope it doesn't happen. You decide. :asian:
Sean

Well, no, I guess it's not so obvious. My position was that these guys (and I'm referring to most of the posters in the supplied thread above) seem to think they have the market cornered on "real world fighting" because they can groundfight and Kenpo people slap each other. I'm sure a lot of fights do go to the ground, and in some cases because one person was already losing the fight while he was up.

As I read more replies however, my position shifts more to include the idea that with your member name, you may fit in well with them.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Well, no, I guess it's not so obvious. My position was that these guys (and I'm referring to most of the posters in the supplied thread above) seem to think they have the market cornered on "real world fighting" because they can groundfight and Kenpo people slap each other. I'm sure a lot of fights do go to the ground, and in some cases because one person was already losing the fight while he was up.

As I read more replies however, my position shifts more to include the idea that with your member name, you may fit in well with them.

My member name comes from a video game Bart Simpson played instead of attending his kenpo class. I just thought I sensed an, "'I'm never goin' to the ground" in your posts. This is to be expected from people who call themselves Mike
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

Hehe - OK good. I'd rather see you posting on MT anyways

I actually love ground fighting, I just prefer to stomp.

 

[Zoran]

The below interview was done with the late John McSweeney. It is basically an interview that I got emailed to me from a friend. I copied it EXACTLY the way it was in the interview. I found this VERY interesting. There are some things in this interview that I have said to some of the die hard Kenpo guys. Again, funny how I'm not the only one who says stuff like this.

Question twelve: We know that Kenpo is very good for hand technique but, there is a lot of talk today about grappling technique and on-the-ground moves. Does Kenpo emphasize that? If so, why don't people know about it and if not, did you add it to the style?

"I added ground grappling to my style years ago because I had a heavy background in Judo. It is my opinion that you need defense against grapplers especially if you're thrown to the ground. In Kenpo which is an in-fighting art, if you miss with a strike, or if you're not powerful enough to stop something, they can grab you and immobilize you and throw you to the ground. Then you have a major problem.

"My theory is to learn enough about ground fighting, for instance bridging and escapes. If you're not a grappler don't try to become one. Stay with the art you learned but, learn enough ground fighting to enable you to escape and get back to your feet. I don't train people to be wrestlers because that's a whole separate art, and to be a good wrestler takes years, just as it is to be a good boxer or Kung Fu man. You don't do it overnight, it takes years of training. It's also a whole different philosophy. The wrestler wants to grab and hold you and choke you out or lock you into a submission hold. Kenpo people e are taught to knock people out quickly.

"So to answer your question, Kenpo does not teach anything about grappling, and it is a shortcoming of the art. But this is true of many of the hand arts. Grapping is just not part of the systems. But, just as a good grappler would want to learn a few good hand strikes, so too would a hand man want to learn a few tricks from the ground. My students are taught ground work but that is because of my background. I teach them enough to get a person off them. A well-rounded instructor should be able to give you some instruction in basic ground work. However, if your teacher is not a grappler, then I suggest find a good teacher in Judo and learn the basics. This knowledge can serve you well.

John McSweeney was always a bit of a "rogue" when it came to mainstream Kenpo. He sort of did his own thing and didn't care what others thought. It's one of the things I loved about the man.

It is true, there was some ground work in his form of Kenpo long before the BJJ days. However, it has evolved quite a bit since then and will continue to do so. What I like about my instructor, is he saw the need to better address gound fighting within his system. Which he has through various mediums and is slowly integrating this into his system (kenpoizing it). We have one day a week now set aside for ground fighting classes run by one of our black belts. Eventually, it will be fully integrated.

 

[MJS]

Not too interesting unless your into bashing other peoples styles. One thing that gets me is these "groud fighters" think they have the market cornered, trouble is, you have to get your opponent down there.

I agree with OFK and his reply. My 2 cents regarding this---Looking back to the first UFC, I bet the majority of stand up fighters never dreamed that they'd end up on their backs. Its really not that difficult due to the fact that any time the stand up guy extends a limb, the grappler will take advantage of it.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Actually, they probably weren't even fighting. If that's what they take to the street, well.......

Not sure how many tournys you've been to, but the majority of the ones I've been to, have all had someone fall, stumble, etc. and what happened??? The ref was right there to break the action.

Mike

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I agree with OFK and his reply. My 2 cents regarding this---Looking back to the first UFC, I bet the majority of stand up fighters never dreamed that they'd end up on their backs. Its really not that difficult due to the fact that any time the stand up guy extends a limb, the grappler will take advantage of it.

Mike

The UFC ring was designed by the Gracies to limit the amount of damage to themselves, not the standup guys. Change the ring, change the outcome.

Dark Lord

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Not sure how many tournys you've been to, but the majority of the ones I've been to, have all had someone fall, stumble, etc. and what happened??? The ref was right there to break the action.

Mike

Not in the IKC's, you had a three second rule that allowed the one on the ground or the one standing to score in that position. I saw a lot of cups get kicked straight up with a heel from the guy on the ground because the one standing up didn't control the fall because most times, it was accidental. It was even more rare to see the standup fighter score than the guy on the ground. They didn't allow kicks below the waist, except to groin, which limited their targets for any sort of follow up after the fall.

Dark Lord

 

[cfr]

Im sure this would work against a live, resisting opponent. LOL. Does anyone know if this has been tried against a real grappler??? The outcome??? Not theory, but actually tested?

cfr
Proud member of the "shake n' bake, impatient, want it all my way right now, just really not understanding the deeper meaning of it all" club.

Hey, I just came up with my new signiture... :boing2:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Dark Kenpo Lad:

The UFC ring was designed by the Gracies to limit the amount of damage to themselves, not the standup guys. Change the ring, change the outcome.

I don't think you know what are you talking about! The early UFC ring had almost no restrictions except for no biting or groin kicking. After Rorion Gracie sold the UFC, they instituted rules favoring the standup strikers such as
* standing the fighters up when doing a checkup similar to a standing 8 count
* making them wear gloves
* having time-limited rounds.

Not in the IKC's, you had a three second rule that allowed the one on the ground or the one standing to score in that position. I saw a lot of cups get kicked straight up with a heel from the guy on the ground because the one standing up didn't control the fall because most times, it was accidental. It was even more rare to see the standup fighter score than the guy on the ground. They didn't allow kicks below the waist, except to groin, which limited their targets for any sort of follow up after the fall.

WTF? My experience judging and competing is that the standing guy scored more often -- but like Mike said the referee was right there to break things up after only 3 seconds when not more than one or two strikes was ever thrown.

 

[Zoran]

Dark Kenpo Lad:


I don't think you know what are you talking about! The early UFC ring had almost no restrictions except for no biting or groin kicking. After Rorion Gracie sold the UFC, they instituted rules favoring the standup strikers such as
* standing the fighters up when doing a checkup similar to a standing 8 count
* making them wear gloves
* having time-limited rounds.

It's all about the money. Supposedly it's designed for the fighters safety. Actually it's designed to make the fights more exciting, as the fighters tend to have to beat on each other more, which brings them more sponsors and spectators.

Oh, it was no biting and eye gouging. Groin kicking was allowed, as was any kick, even against the joint.

 

[MJS]

The UFC ring was designed by the Gracies to limit the amount of damage to themselves, not the standup guys. Change the ring, change the outcome.

Dark Lord

Well, lets not make excuses for the stand up guys here. Keep in mind, that if you really want to be adept with your skills, you should be training in shoes, especially if the majority of your training is done barefoot. A few other things to look at also. If you look at some of the Graice in Action tapes, you'll see fights that take place outside of a ring. Also, some of the NHB matches use a boxing ring, and the stand up guys are having the same problem. I think Pride uses that type of ring.

Mike

 

[MJS]

It's all about the money. Supposedly it's designed for the fighters safety. Actually it's designed to make the fights more exciting, as the fighters tend to have to beat on each other more, which brings them more sponsors and spectators.

Oh, it was no biting and eye gouging. Groin kicking was allowed, as was any kick, even against the joint.

Personally, I look more forward to seeing some tech. rather than 2 guys just beat the heck out of each other while throwing crapply techs.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Not in the IKC's, you had a three second rule that allowed the one on the ground or the one standing to score in that position. I saw a lot of cups get kicked straight up with a heel from the guy on the ground because the one standing up didn't control the fall because most times, it was accidental. It was even more rare to see the standup fighter score than the guy on the ground. They didn't allow kicks below the waist, except to groin, which limited their targets for any sort of follow up after the fall.

Dark Lord

Well, there are many different tournys. out there, and it has been many years since I've competed.

Mike

 

[MJS]

cfr
Proud member of the "shake n' bake, impatient, want it all my way right now, just really not understanding the deeper meaning of it all" club.

Hey, I just came up with my new signiture... :boing2:

Hey, I like that one!!!! :boing2:

Mike

 

[8253]

i once heard an interesting theory about defending yourself from the ground with someone on top of you. It was pretty much grabbing hold of them and letting them flail around untill they are worn out, or untill you can do some type of decisive damage to remove them.