Kenpo on the ground- part 2

[MJS]

Originally posted by Rick Wade
I would say that Kenpo is a thinking man's art.

The grappling is built in you just have to be smart enough to see it. Some schools teach it and some not so much. I agree there isn't any techniques that I know of that start out on the ground already wraped up if that is what you are talking about. However there are some that end up in a chock hold (the sleeper). There are some that show how to get out of a chock (Thundering Hammer). There are several others for ankle and leg locks.

Thanks
Rick

While this may be true to an extent, I would think that if you wanted to teach something to someone, that you'd have to at least know a little about what you're teaching. If you watch the video clip, you might see what I'm talking about. Again, anything can be done if the person is set up properly. This IMO, is a perfect example of that.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

I was just wondering if you could refer us to videos of your own martial arts work.

Thanks.

 

[MisterMike]

The guy was more like kneeling over Mr. Tatum, which may be fairly applicable on the street, as opposed to some Gracie wrestling match. But yea, there was definitely room to play there. Heck, he coulda just pulled a Jackie Chan and grabbed his legs and slid himself behind they attacker, then kicked him in the back to send him off.

I don't think the knee-bump would eject anyone off of a person, but in that scenario, it seems there was some borrowed force with the guy punching downward. A good hard knee to the tailbone mighta worked though.

Kenpo is more of a striking art, so I wasn't expecting some grappling comeback, but boy did that front leg look good for a twistin'

I gave it 3 outta 5 stars. Might not of been the ideal groundfighting scenario most talk about, but it was one out of the million and a half possibilities.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

There was some rough housing resulting in crying in my son's preschool class yesterday. One of the 3-year olds knocked another one down, sat on him, and wouldn't let his classmate up until a teacher intervened.

That is a mount. You don't need years of training in order to know that if you are stradling someone who is prone on the ground you should sit down on them.

This has nothing to do with the Gracies. It has everything to do with having even a minimum sense of realism in your training and in video instruction. The message Mr. Tatum was trying to communicate was completely lost because the attack was too weak to be taken seriously or to enable him to establish credibility in that situation.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Good idea, Robert. I have a 1992 tournament video with a Black Belt self-defense technique demonstration division in its entirety where I won 2nd place (Marcus Buonifoglio won 3rd and another Black Belt from my school won 1st). I'll see if I can get that converted to a PC format.

As far as instructional videos on the web, what would you like to see? MMA, BJJ, Judo, Kickboxing, street fights? There are many links we could dig up for you that would demonstrate a high degree of realism within their given rule sets.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I realize that this won't do the slightest good, but the Tip was meant to illustrate the application of a vertical technique in a horizontal plane. Please go back and listen to the commentary.

I realize this won't faze anybody, but the dummy is a purple belt with a bum knee. If you do this tech with your knees down, and you dummy up sloppily, your knee tends to get torqued rather badly. There is further discussion of this on KenpoNet.

I realize that several won't believe this BUT I HAVE DONE THIS PARTICULAR TECHNIQUE BOTH AS A DUMMY AND ON THE GROUND, WITH KNEES ON AND OFF THE MAT. It is, in point of fact, very difficult to reach the face with punches unless at least one knee is down. When you get your knees down, lean in and swing hard and fast, you get hosed--unless, of course, they freeze.

I realize that this will simply be read as more evidence that I am a hidebound traditionalist with no understanding whatsoever of What Can Happen, but personally, I've been running one tech or another for peeling somebody off since 1993. At that same studio.

And I realize this is likely to get ignored, but I a) am quite well aware of most of the biggies in grappling, b) have indeed practiced this stuff but am by no means a genius at it, c) have indeed learned stuff from these arguments.

Again, I'd like to see demos of grappling techs--shown for the same reasons, to illustrate a concept--considered to be more realistic. I will bet you a shiny new nickel that I can come up with just as many objections, all based in complaining about realism.

I am also quite acutely aware that martial arts instructors can set things up to make themselves look good, and so limit the nature of attacks and responses, and so condition their students to over-respect them, that nothing real gets taught. I have a pretty good idea of how this happens, too, so I tend to be skeptical and watchful. No matter who's the head of my school. Can all of you folks say the same?

There is no such thing as a perfect, invulnerable technique.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
I was just wondering if you could refer us to videos of your own martial arts work.

Thanks.

No,sorry Robert, but I have no tapes. I can however recommend some very good ones if you're interested.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson

I realize that this won't do the slightest good, but the Tip was meant to illustrate the application of a vertical technique in a horizontal plane. Please go back and listen to the commentary.

Robert-I emailed Mr. Tatum and asked him to do a TOW on how a Kenpo student would respond to someone mounted on them, punching down at their face. I did NOT request to see a vertical tech. on a horizontal plane. Everybody is saying that, and I really dont know where that idea came from. Maybe it was a misunderstanding in my email.

I realize this won't faze anybody, but the dummy is a purple belt with a bum knee. If you do this tech with your knees down, and you dummy up sloppily, your knee tends to get torqued rather badly. There is further discussion of this on KenpoNet.

Well, it shouldnt matter if it was a purple belt or a black belt, as long as the person was doing the mount. As for the injury, well, maybe someone else should have been used. As for your knees getting hurt...not the case. Every time I train the mount, my knees are down, and I dont get hurt when the bottom guy rolls me off of him.

I realize that several won't believe this BUT I HAVE DONE THIS PARTICULAR TECHNIQUE BOTH AS A DUMMY AND ON THE GROUND, WITH KNEES ON AND OFF THE MAT. It is, in point of fact, very difficult to reach the face with punches unless at least one knee is down. When you get your knees down, lean in and swing hard and fast, you get hosed--unless, of course, they freeze.

The guy on top has a much better reach than the bottom guy. You really dont need to lean as far forward as you think. In fact, you can pretty much be upright and still reach the bottom guy.

I realize that this will simply be read as more evidence that I am a hidebound traditionalist with no understanding whatsoever of What Can Happen, but personally, I've been running one tech or another for peeling somebody off since 1993. At that same studio.

Ok.......

And I realize this is likely to get ignored, but I a) am quite well aware of most of the biggies in grappling, b) have indeed practiced this stuff but am by no means a genius at it, c) have indeed learned stuff from these arguments.

Thats great Rob! That was what I originally set out to do...educate the stand up fighters on the importance of learning just a little bit of the ground!

Again, I'd like to see demos of grappling techs--shown for the same reasons, to illustrate a concept--considered to be more realistic. I will bet you a shiny new nickel that I can come up with just as many objections, all based in complaining about realism.

A little research on the web should give you what you're looking for. Worse case, just rent a few NHB fights and that'll give you a good idea about how a proper mount is done, and the effect is has on the bottom guy.

I am also quite acutely aware that martial arts instructors can set things up to make themselves look good, and so limit the nature of attacks and responses, and so condition their students to over-respect them, that nothing real gets taught. I have a pretty good idea of how this happens, too, so I tend to be skeptical and watchful. No matter who's the head of my school. Can all of you folks say the same?

Rob- Again, it all comes down to resistance. If there is no resistance, then there is no way that you'll be able to get a feel for the way the tech is going to work. For example. When I train an armlock, I first do it with no resistance. The guy is letting me do it. I then have him give me a little more resistance. This is making sure that I'm really getting the fine points of the lock down. Finally, the bottom guy does everything he can to avoid letting me get that lock. If I can get it, I know that I got it! I had to work for it and I'll know that it wasnt just given to me.

There is no such thing as a perfect, invulnerable technique.

You're correct on that one. Just like there is no perfect, invulnerable instructor.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

One of your better responses, Michael.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
One of your better responses, Michael.

Thank you Robert.

Mike

 

[MisterMike]

Group hug! Group hug! Can ya feel it!!??

artyon:

 

[fist of fury]

Just thought this thread might be of intrest to the kenpoists here


http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9236

 

[MisterMike]

Not too interesting unless your into bashing other peoples styles. One thing that gets me is these "groud fighters" think they have the market cornered, trouble is, you have to get your opponent down there.

 

[rmcrobertson]

It's a shame that the bullshido people are such dorks, because I absolutely love the IDEA of what they're doing. But as I will now be noting every time they come up in conversation, note that a) nobody seems to use their real name; b) everybody picks the sort of alias I usually associate with 12-year-olds playing with Pokemon or Transformer; c) everybody swaggers a lot.

Pity, really. Martial arts could use some debunking (OK, a LOT of debunking), and if you dig through the...uh...well...the organ waving, they have a lot of good things to say.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

One thing that gets me is these "groud fighters" think they have the market cornered, trouble is, you have to get your opponent down there.

One thing that bothers me is that these "Karate Fighters" think they have the market cornered, trouble is, you have to stay on your feet.

It's a shame that the bullshido people are such dorks, because I absolutely love the IDEA of what they're doing. But as I will now be noting every time they come up in conversation, note that a) nobody seems to use their real name; b) everybody picks the sort of alias I usually associate with 12-year-olds playing with Pokemon or Transformer; c) everybody swaggers a lot.

Don't have to have a nickname to be a dork.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Not too interesting unless your into bashing other peoples styles. One thing that gets me is these "groud fighters" think they have the market cornered, trouble is, you have to get your opponent down there.

If you train to attack your opponents weakest base of support (right from B1A and B1B on), and your opponent knows anything, someone is going to fall down. If it is him and you are late on the pretty double cross out, you be grapplin'
Sean

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Think about all the Karate tournaments you've been to? Ever see anyone fall down during sparring competition? Yeah, me too. Gee, and they weren't even fighting someone trying to take them down!

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Think about all the Karate tournaments you've been to? Ever see anyone fall down during sparring competition? Yeah, me too. Gee, and they weren't even fighting someone trying to take them down!

Not to mention snow, ice, gravel, oil based jello(hee hee).
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Think about all the Karate tournaments you've been to? Ever see anyone fall down during sparring competition? Yeah, me too. Gee, and they weren't even fighting someone trying to take them down!

Actually, they probably weren't even fighting. If that's what they take to the street, well.......

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Actually, they probably weren't even fighting. If that's what they take to the street, well.......

Obviously your position(ha ha) on the subject is that you opponent will be hard pressed to get you down and then they will be rendered defensles by your minor move extraviganza. We come from a school of thought that there is no disgrace in being thrown. That is... we don't put up that little what, me, worry ? barrier that seems to permiate the mentalities of those who do stand up training. Its going to happen. Let the ground be your freind. Learn how to go right from the breakfall... or hope it doesn't happen. You decide. :asian:
Sean