Kenpo Jujitsu? Is this the original art of Kenpo?

[TMAA]

Hello Everyone:

I’ve been watching this site, http://www.mogulsinc.com for some time. And when I have a question on a new video that comes up I always come to the experts who are on this blog.

Here is a video on Channel 6 (to see it click on the number 6 on the remote which will take you to the channel), the show is Best Defense dated July 12, 2009 http://www.mogulsinc.com/Development/test.htm

I always enjoyed watching Kenpo stylist since seeing the Perfect Weapon, but is there such a thing as Kenpo Jujitsu?

Is this the older version of current Kenpo or is this the way it was originally taught by GM Mitose?

Let me know what your views are on this Kenpo Jujitsu, and is it well explained in this clip?

I know lots of questions, but I enjoy seeing the responses and learning something.

Thanks

 

[celtic_crippler]

I hit "6" but don't think I was watching the right clip. They mentioned several styles, but not Kenpo Jujitsu.

Anyway...Here's the short version

Mitose wrote the book "What is Self Defense: Kenpo Jiu Jitsu"

William K.S. Chow studied under Mitose, but changed the spelling to KeNpo to differentiate himself from Kosho Ryu Kempo, the generational art of Mitose's family.

Ed Parker studied under Chow and his art went through several changes as well...and the rest is reasonably well known.

 

[Twin Fist]

Mitose's art bears little to no resemblence to modern kenpo

the real "mother art" of all modern kenpo, IMO, comes from Chow

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,
"Kempo Jujitsu" is the Japanese side of the very early Kenpo that became what we have today. It was the base system of James Mitose, who was William Chow's teacher, at least for awhile.
I agree with the statement that Chow's Kenpo is closer to the traditional Kenpo as we know it today. He added much to what he was taught by Mitose.
Of course, Kenpo has changed quite a bit, overall, through the lineage.
Kempo Jujitsu, Kenpo Karate, Chinese Kenpo, American Kenpo and EPAK have all had some different influences from all of the chief personalities involved.
If it were not for Mitose's "Kempo Jujitsu", and Chow's influence, we would probably not have Kenpo as we know it today.
Good thread. Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I can only speak about our verison of Kempo Jujutsu and it has roots going back to Aikijujutsu, which is much older then Mitose's Kempo Jujutsu.

 

[TMAA]

I hit "6" but don't think I was watching the right clip. They mentioned several styles, but not Kenpo Jujitsu.

The video will be on the very bottom of the list on channel 6 you have to scroll down.

What has changed from the original form of Kenpo that Mitose taught?

From what I can see on Youtube, there is the classical striking power and speed, but recently (in the historical term over the centuries) has the art of Jujitsu/Aikijujutsu been lost?

It would seem that this is a important part of the system for close quarter combat.

 

[celtic_crippler]

What has changed from the original form of Kenpo that Mitose taught?

Oh boy...to what current form of kenpo? Or to what other form of kenpo that followed?

That's a BIG question with a TON of possible answers.

It would seem that this is a important part of the system for close quarter combat.

Close quarter combat is probably one common thread in all kenpo systems, but application and methodology can vary greatly.

 

[RevIV]

I can only speak about our verison of Kempo Jujutsu and it has roots going back to Aikijujutsu, which is much older then Mitose's Kempo Jujutsu.

how old is Aikijujutsu? or how far back can you trace it to be more precise?

 

[Kempojujutsu]

My instructor was a student of Taika Oyata back in the early to mid 80's. Oyata's family history can be traced back to 1600's. Oyata was also a student under Nakamura. Nakamura started training around 10 years old. (That would dated back to around 1902.) Under his uncle and Chokki Motobu.

Aikijujutsu history varies from whom you talk too. Some say there is history that dates it back to mid 1000. Others have it starting around 1600's. Takeda Sokaku is known as the founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Which dates back to the middle 1800's. But there is history of it being older then that.

I just have a problem with people saying if it wasn't for Mitose there would be no Kem/npo. People were doing it long before Mitose was even born. That was the point I was trying to bring up.

 

[celtic_crippler]

My instructor was a student of Taika Oyata back in the early to mid 80's. Oyata's family history can be traced back to 1600's. Oyata was also a student under Nakamura. Nakamura started training around 10 years old. (That would dated back to around 1902.) Under his uncle and Chokki Motobu.

Aikijujutsu history varies from whom you talk too. Some say there is history that dates it back to mid 1000. Others have it starting around 1600's. Takeda Sokaku is known as the founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu Which dates back to the middle 1800's. But there is history of it being older then that.

I just have a problem with people saying if it wasn't for Mitose there would be no Kem/npo. People were doing it long before Mitose was even born. That was the point I was trying to bring up.

Who says that?

I believe Mitose was the 21st generation of his family to practice "Old Pine Tree" style...but it's documented that his ancestor brought it back from China...not sure from who or where though...

Anyway, I think part of the problem is people think linearly and don't account for the fact that martial artist gain skill from more than just a single influence. It probably doesn't help that people ask to see specific family trees either...

 

[Danjo]

I think Mitose learned most of his "Kenpo" from a book by Motobu that came to Hawaii in the 1930's. Chow said that Mitose only taught "Kinny Garden stuff." Which is borne out by subsequent wittnesses of his skill. Chow was constantly learning and innovating and taught till he died. In Okinawa, Kenpo and Karate were used interchangably.

Some people believe the legend about the Kosho ryu story. That's their right, but I'm pretty sceptical about it.

 

[Twin Fist]

you and me both

 

[Flying Crane]

I think Mitose learned most of his "Kenpo" from a book by Motobu that came to Hawaii in the 1930's. Chow said that Mitose only taught "Kinny Garden stuff." Which is borne out by subsequent wittnesses of his skill. Chow was constantly learning and innovating and taught till he died. In Okinawa, Kenpo and Karate were used interchangably.

Some people believe the legend about the Kosho ryu story. That's their right, but I'm pretty sceptical about it.

Danjo, I'm not looking to rehash old issues that have been discussed to death. But didn't Mr. Chow make the "kinny garden stuff" comment in the very same interview where he stated that Ed Parker was not very good, and was only a "purple belt" when he left?

My point is only that Mr. Chow seems to have held on to some bitterness towards certain people, possibly deserved in some cases, possibly not in others, but he spoke from emotion which may not have been based in reality.

Personally, I'm skeptical of the truth behind his purple belt statement about Mr. Parker. But I'm equally skeptical about the truth behind the "kinny garden stuff" comment he made about Mr. Mitose. I think these were the comments of a bitter old man shooting from the hip.

Obviously I've never met either Mr. CHow nor Mr. Mitose. But I suspect that many other people who comment in the negative about what Mr. Mitose was doing may simply have not understood it. Mr. Mitose may have been a poor martial artist, or a great one, or more likely was somewhere in between. But neither you nor I are in a position to judge that.

I'll just leave it at that.

 

[celtic_crippler]

These posts further prove how incredibly diverse the art has become. Even early on, much about it and it's origins were debated. There are various versions of history depending on who you talk to or what you read.

Many have tried to nail down a concrete history, but none have succeeded in penning one that everybody agreed with. Take it for what it's worth and instead focus on your training. LOL

 

[Twin Fist]

well, we DO know that what Mitose taught looked NOTHING like what Chow taught, essentially, Mitose taught japanese karate.

we do know that all of the Kenpo that came out of Hawaii, and all the sub systems look nothing like Mitose's stuff

now, not talking about the japanese/okinawan versions of kenpo, but otherwise, all the world's kenpo and all of thier sub systems can be traced back to one man.

and his name isnt mitose

 

[celtic_crippler]

well, we DO know that what Mitose taught looked NOTHING like what Chow taught, essentially, Mitose taught japanese karate.

we do know that all of the Kenpo that came out of Hawaii, and all the sub systems look nothing like Mitose's stuff

now, not talking about the japanese/okinawan versions of kenpo, but otherwise, all the world's kenpo and all of thier sub systems can be traced back to one man.

and his name isnt mitose

Who pray tell? The ancient Indian holy man that caught the Chinese monks napping when they should have been meditating? LOL

 

[Danjo]

Danjo, I'm not looking to rehash old issues that have been discussed to death. But didn't Mr. Chow make the "kinny garden stuff" comment in the very same interview where he stated that Ed Parker was not very good, and was only a "purple belt" when he left?

My point is only that Mr. Chow seems to have held on to some bitterness towards certain people, possibly deserved in some cases, possibly not in others, but he spoke from emotion which may not have been based in reality.

Personally, I'm skeptical of the truth behind his purple belt statement about Mr. Parker. But I'm equally skeptical about the truth behind the "kinny garden stuff" comment he made about Mr. Mitose. I think these were the comments of a bitter old man shooting from the hip.

Obviously I've never met either Mr. CHow nor Mr. Mitose. But I suspect that many other people who comment in the negative about what Mr. Mitose was doing may simply have not understood it. Mr. Mitose may have been a poor martial artist, or a great one, or more likely was somewhere in between. But neither you nor I are in a position to judge that.

I'll just leave it at that.

Well, I see your point. Like I said, these are my opinions based on what I've been able to garner from various sources (some of them trained with Mitose and Chow). But, like you said, we weren't there to see how "kinny garden" his stuff was (BTW, no it wasn't in that same interview that he said that. In that interview, he said Mitose talked while he, Chow, demonstrated.), but neither were we there to see him training like Kwai Chiang Caine at the Shaka-in temple in Japan and learning techniques that "no one understood" because they were dead-ringers for super basic punches etc.

The answers will never be known for sure. I have my opinions and others have theirs.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, I see your point. Like I said, these are my opinions based on what I've been able to garner from various sources (some of them trained with Mitose and Chow). But, like you said, we weren't there to see how "kinny garden" his stuff was (BTW, no it wasn't in that same interview that he said that. In that interview, he said Mitose talked while he, Chow, demonstrated.), but neither were we there to see him training like Kwai Chiang Caine at the Shaka-in temple in Japan and learning techniques that "no one understood" because they were dead-ringers for super basic punches etc.

The answers will never be known for sure. I have my opinions and others have theirs.

fair enough. thanks

 

[Milt G.]

Hello,
I have found that since the history of Kenpo is such a "long and winding road" I have to decide what to believe. Many of the stories tend to contradict themselves.

How I do it, is to pick a source that I trust... usually someone who was there (or thereabouts) and take their opinion or "facts" as my own. It helps to have a history with said individual.

I do understand that even those "ground floor" practitioners have disagreements and misunderstandings about what they witnessed and how they witnessed it. Sometimes those "misunderstandings" are motivated by ego or politics. As those things are unimportant to me, I just try to "glean" the substance of what I hear, or what I am told, and try to shed the political or ego driven spin. Of course, that relies on my ability to recognize the difference.
No mean feat!

I understand that my source may be inaccurate, but I will never really know that for certain. Even asking another may not make the "facts" more clear. I just have to trust my sources, my seniors and my heart.

There seems to be just as many stories on the history of Kenpo as there are personalities involved. While I am interested, deeply, in the history of our art, I do understand that there are things I may never know for sure. I just try to listen to who I trust, and hope that they are being honest to themselves, their students and to Kenpo.

What else can I, or anyone, do...?

Thank you,
Milt G.

 

[celtic_crippler]

I guess it depends on how important it really is to you and how far back you want to attempt to go...

I can easily trace my lineage to SGM Ed Parker...that's good enough for me.

Good luck to the rest of you!