Kenpo and Tai Chi

[8253]

Just curious as to the thoughts of everyone as to wether or not Kenpo has some of the fundamental elements of Tai Chi, such as energy flow, and breathing excercises.

 

[pete]

everything in life has the fundamental elements of tai chi, and as such can be developed through applying the principles to your activity, or inactivity as the case may be...

 

[Doc]

Just curious as to the thoughts of everyone as to wether or not Kenpo has some of the fundamental elements of Tai Chi, such as energy flow, and breathing excercises.

Hey Pete.

As I was taught Kenpo IS Tai Chi (grand ultimate), or more correctly Tai Chi Chuan. The Chaun component (fist) is the application phase after you learn HOW to move. In fact Jimmy Woo when he taught Tai Chi Chaun/Kenpo for Ed Parker Sr. always said they were the same, it was only a matter of the methodology in teaching and training. Ed Parker once described Kenpo as "Dynamic Tai Chi Chaun."

In SubLevel Four each technique is a mini tai chi from with all the proper body mechnics, counter resistance, and breathing found in traditional tai chi, and is utilized in what we call S.E.T. training for Singular Execution Training. This methodology can produce many of the aspects and benefits of training with a partner when none is available. Much like what typically is seen in tai chi practice with the focus on application as well as proper breathing and body mechanics.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Dr. Chapél

Thank you for posting this information. I have wondered this question in the past. I have remembered reading before how there were times where Mr Parker and also Mr Tatum have hit people using their chi. There was something i had read before where Mr Tatum was talking to Mr Parker about this and Mr Parker had commented that at a certain age Mr Tatum would know this ability. Then at a seminar (i think it was in chili) Mr Tatum was showing something to a group of people and when the attacker came at him he was able to neutrelize his delivery system and repel the attack and everyone swears he didnt touch him physically. But the attacker said he felt him as if he did.
It reminds me of the displacement of force from Tai Chi where you are able to allow the chi to come out of you.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Hey Pete.

As I was taught Kenpo IS Tai Chi (grand ultimate), or more correctly Tai Chi Chuan. The Chaun component (fist) is the application phase after you learn HOW to move. In fact Jimmy Woo when he taught Tai Chi Chaun/Kenpo for Ed Parker Sr. always said they were the same, it was only a matter of the methodology in teaching and training. Ed Parker once described Kenpo as "Dynamic Tai Chi Chaun."

In SubLevel Four each technique is a mini tai chi from with all the proper body mechnics, counter resistance, and breathing found in traditional tai chi, and is utilized in what we call S.E.T. training for Singular Execution Training. This methodology can produce many of the aspects and benefits of training with a partner when none is available. Much like what typically is seen in tai chi practice with the focus on application as well as proper breathing and body mechanics.

 

[pete]

What's up Doc!

I've found on my exploration through Kenpo and Tai Chi that there are some basic contradictions between the 2 arts, contradictions that i am sure did not exist in the kenpo taught to you by Mr Parker, nor exist in your Sub-Level 4 system. Unfortunately, I have access to neither, but do have access to a gifted and wonderfully open minded Tai Chi Master and equally competent and knowledgeable Kenpo professor. I have the distinct pleasure of pursuing my journey with invaluable guidance from these 2 men.

One point that I feel needs to be made is that applying Tai Chi principles to Kenpo does not equate with "doing Kenpo slowly". The original poster asked about energy flow, and many of the forms, techniques, and drills learned in "most" kenpo schools do not cultivate energy flow as you would find in a Tai Chi practice... at least not without some modifications. This is what I am working on, finding where the modifications can be made so that it remains kenpo and yet adheres to Tai Chi principles.

Tai Chi requires attention to many anatomical and philosophical details, far too many to list here without risking the absence of key points... but a Tai Chi form requires the inclusion of 13 postures: Ward-off, Rollback, Press, Push, Pluck, Split, Elbow Strike, Shoulder Strike, Advance, Retreat, Look Left, Look Right, and Central Equilibrium. These postures will demonstrate the principles of yielding, sticking, adhering, listening, leading, relaxing, turning, and rooting. Without this, you are not practicing Tai Chi.

Doing Kenpo slowly is just that.

pete

 

[wingchunner]

I disagree. Based on physical appearance, it may appear that Kenpo is similar what is commonly known as the Style of Tai Chi Chuan, but internally, things are very different.

Marty

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I believe that you can cultivate chi whether you are practicing tai chi or kenpo. I have read examples of it happening after long term practice in various arts not just tai chi.

I think you should also take another look at kenpo too.


Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

What's up Doc!

I've found on my exploration through Kenpo and Tai Chi that there are some basic contradictions between the 2 arts, contradictions that i am sure did not exist in the kenpo taught to you by Mr Parker, nor exist in your Sub-Level 4 system. Unfortunately, I have access to neither, but do have access to a gifted and wonderfully open minded Tai Chi Master and equally competent and knowledgeable Kenpo professor. I have the distinct pleasure of pursuing my journey with invaluable guidance from these 2 men.

One point that I feel needs to be made is that applying Tai Chi principles to Kenpo does not equate with "doing Kenpo slowly". The original poster asked about energy flow, and many of the forms, techniques, and drills learned in "most" kenpo schools do not cultivate energy flow as you would find in a Tai Chi practice... at least not without some modifications. This is what I am working on, finding where the modifications can be made so that it remains kenpo and yet adheres to Tai Chi principles.

Tai Chi requires attention to many anatomical and philosophical details, far too many to list here without risking the absence of key points... but a Tai Chi form requires the inclusion of 13 postures: Ward-off, Rollback, Press, Push, Pluck, Split, Elbow Strike, Shoulder Strike, Advance, Retreat, Look Left, Look Right, and Central Equilibrium. These postures will demonstrate the principles of yielding, sticking, adhering, listening, leading, relaxing, turning, and rooting. Without this, you are not practicing Tai Chi.

Doing Kenpo slowly is just that.

pete

 

[pete]

I disagree. Based on physical appearance, it may appear that Kenpo is similar what is commonly known as the Style of Tai Chi Chuan, but internally, things are very different.

Marty

Kenpo can be internalized, and with correct practice and proper focus what is external becomes internal, and what is internal becomes external... it is more like the external within the internal and the internal within the external... the yin within the yang, and the yang within the yin. This is called Harmony.

i venture to say that you cannot accompish this by simply softening kenpo, or doing the forms slowly, which is a common misconception.

I believe that you can cultivate chi whether you are practicing tai chi or kenpo. - Chicago Green Dragon

agree. its in the HOW you practice kenpo. you can also cultivate chi by raking leaves, shoveling snow, bowling, playing lawn darts, painting the fence, waxing the car, flying a kite, etc... remember wu-wei, it not just about what you are doing, but also what you are not doing. :asian:

 

[wingchunner]

Ok. Let's say I buy that, pete. But, if you change what's happening internally and going more internal vs. external. are you still doing Kenpo? I would say no. Also, from my experience, the structure internally of the body and how it is used is very different from Kenpo vs. Tai Chi. Granted as one trains in kenpo over numerous years one will become more internal, but the intent is still on the external.
If one practices Kenpo, and internally change the structure to match that in tai chi, are you still practicing Kenpo? Furthermore, due to the structural change, the energy will flow differently through the body can it still be considered Kenpo, or is it now tai chi? Additionally, the use of push hands training to develop sensitivity is traditionally tai chi, not kenpo. Even though long time training in kenpo will produce some sensitivity, it is not a primary focus of training and a means of combat, rather, "sparring" is. Certainly, a kenpo stylist can incorporate push hands type training into their practice or even system. The approach to combat of kenpo vs. tai chi is very different as well.

To me, Kenpo is Kenpo and tai chi chuan is tai chi chuan.

Marty

 

[Doc]

What's up Doc!

I've found on my exploration through Kenpo and Tai Chi that there are some basic contradictions between the 2 arts, contradictions that i am sure did not exist in the kenpo taught to you by Mr Parker, nor exist in your Sub-Level 4 system. Unfortunately, I have access to neither, but do have access to a gifted and wonderfully open minded Tai Chi Master and equally competent and knowledgeable Kenpo professor. I have the distinct pleasure of pursuing my journey with invaluable guidance from these 2 men.

One point that I feel needs to be made is that applying Tai Chi principles to Kenpo does not equate with "doing Kenpo slowly". The original poster asked about energy flow, and many of the forms, techniques, and drills learned in "most" kenpo schools do not cultivate energy flow as you would find in a Tai Chi practice... at least not without some modifications. This is what I am working on, finding where the modifications can be made so that it remains kenpo and yet adheres to Tai Chi principles.

Tai Chi requires attention to many anatomical and philosophical details, far too many to list here without risking the absence of key points... but a Tai Chi form requires the inclusion of 13 postures: Ward-off, Rollback, Press, Push, Pluck, Split, Elbow Strike, Shoulder Strike, Advance, Retreat, Look Left, Look Right, and Central Equilibrium. These postures will demonstrate the principles of yielding, sticking, adhering, listening, leading, relaxing, turning, and rooting. Without this, you are not practicing Tai Chi.

Doing Kenpo slowly is just that.

pete

Well Pete, I have to say I mostly agree with your perspective. Not withstanding my first teacher Ark Yuey Wong, my conversations with my original training partner his nephew Douglas Wong, Jimmy Woo, and my relationship with notables like Share Lew, and more recently my long friendship with Pan Ying Dunn, The differences are rooted in the knowledge and history of the teacher, and their assumptions.

Kenpo is NOT even Kempo, nor is Tai Ji Quan just, Tai Ch Chaun. My point is both arts are defined by the teacher and practitioner and there is no definitive one version of either anymore, philosophically or physically. Are they the same or different? I was told it all depends upon the limitations of the teacher. I was fortunate enough to study and associate with some of the greatest of the previous millennium. To a person they all had the same opinion; "They are the same."

But when I speak of kenpo as I understand and teach it, I talk about energy flow, posture, counter resistance, space dominance, etc and most modern "kenpo people" think I'm nuts, thus the "mad" Kenpo Scientist" handle. Both terms have become generic today, therefore MOST have no idea of what they are getting beyond what they are told by their teacher - just like me.

What MOST understand of "kenpo" would not be the same as what MOST consider "tai chi," -

but that is their problem.

 

[Rainman]

Ok. Let's say I buy that, pete. But, if you change what's happening internally and going more internal vs. external. are you still doing Kenpo? I would say no. Also, from my experience, the structure internally of the body and how it is used is very different from Kenpo vs. Tai Chi. Granted as one trains in kenpo over numerous years one will become more internal, but the intent is still on the external.
If one practices Kenpo, and internally change the structure to match that in tai chi, are you still practicing Kenpo? Furthermore, due to the structural change, the energy will flow differently through the body can it still be considered Kenpo, or is it now tai chi? Additionally, the use of push hands training to develop sensitivity is traditionally tai chi, not kenpo. Even though long time training in kenpo will produce some sensitivity, it is not a primary focus of training and a means of combat, rather, "sparring" is. Certainly, a kenpo stylist can incorporate push hands type training into their practice or even system. The approach to combat of kenpo vs. tai chi is very different as well.

To me, Kenpo is Kenpo and tai chi chuan is tai chi chuan.

Marty

American Kenpo is not traditional. It is conceptual. Structural alignment is structural alignment. Either one is just a vehicle- how many ways can the same thing be done? Just different methods to get there-

 

[Gary Crawford]

I love Tia Chi as an art,but is too intelectual to be a fighting skill.Kenpo is a huge "shortcut" to what Tia Chi's ultimate reality is.INHO, the chinese think too much when it comes to quick phisical reactions,at the same time I also know that kenpo would have never evolved to what it is without some great chinese minds considering combat realities.So with that said.The groundwork has been done,let Kenpo move forward.I beleive that is what Mr Parker has tried to teach us all.

 

[Doc]

=====

 

[Doc]

I love Tia Chi as an art,but is too intelectual to be a fighting skill.Kenpo is a huge "shortcut" to what Tia Chi's ultimate reality is.INHO, the chinese think too much when it comes to quick phisical reactions,at the same time I also know that kenpo would have never evolved to what it is without some great chinese minds considering combat realities.So with that said.The groundwork has been done,let Kenpo move forward.I beleive that is what Mr Parker has tried to teach us all.

Whose Tai Chi is too intellectual? Yours? What you know of it? Not a fighting skill? You mean as you know it? Now what kenpo is a short cut? Yours? Which Chinese think too much? The ones you know? Mr. Parker tried to teach all of who? You seem to "know" an awful lot about alot of different things. Your statement is full of sweeping genralities that makes assupmtions about all of these things and although I do not know what you know, I do know what you don't know. You don't know the kenpo I was taught, anymore than I know yours, if any. I've been around a while and I never make assumptions about what others might know in any art. I also know your assumptions about what Ed Parker wanted from his various interpretations of Kenpo, specifically mine, is wrong. I do not discount your knowledge but lets leave the, "all kenpo, all tai chi, all Ed Parker wanted," out of the discussion, unless you are "all knowing."

Generalities about specific things lead to confusion.

 

[Gary Crawford]

Whose Tai Chi is too intellectual? Yours? What you know of it? Not a fighting skill? You mean as you know it? Now what kenpo is a short cut? Yours? Which Chinese think too much? The ones you know? Mr. Parker tried to teach all of who? You seem to "know" an awful lot about alot of different things. Your statement is full of sweeping genralities that makes assupmtions about all of these things and although I do not know what you know, I do know what you don't know. You don't know the kenpo I was taught, anymore than I know yours, if any. I've been around a while and I never make assumptions about what others might know in any art. I also know your assumptions about what Ed Parker wanted from his various interpretations of Kenpo, specifically mine, is wrong. I do not discount your knowledge but lets leave the, "all kenpo, all tai chi, all Ed Parker wanted," out of the discussion, unless you are "all knowing."

Generalities about specific things lead to confusion.

Quite the emotional one arn't you?My post was IMHO(in my humble opinion) and in no way was ment to insult you.I don't mind if ANYONE wishes to dissagree with me,but you don't need to lash out at me.

 

[Doc]

Quite the emotional one arn't you?My post was IMHO(in my humble opinion) and in no way was ment to insult you.I don't mind if ANYONE wishes to dissagree with me,but you don't need to lash out at me.

Sorry sir, no lash intended. It just seems strange in light of all written that the thread appeared to digress back to broad assumptive strokes when specifics about what we do would be so much more informative for all of us. I also must admit that I do perk up when someone presumes to know what my friend and teacher wanted for everyone. But of course you are entitled to your opinion, but perhaps the thread would be better served if you explained why you reached the conclusions that you have on the various subjects, including Ed Parker Sr's. goals. Once again, no lash.

 

[kenpo_cory]

most modern "kenpo people" think I'm nuts, thus the "mad" Kenpo Scientist" handle.

Here here!! And I mean that with the utmost respect Mr. Chapel. I wish I had a fraction of your knowledge about Kenpo. :asian:

 

[Sigung86]

Actually, with utmost respect intended.... He's pretty smart for an old guy!
artyon:

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

I agree with you the Dr. is very intelligent and I welcome his wisdom.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Actually, with utmost respect intended.... He's pretty smart for an old guy!
artyon:

 

[Doc]

Although clearly age and “smarts” are mutually exclusive conditions, with no real guarantee that being “older” makes” you smart, or being “smart” means you have to be “old.”

But clearly age is a factor in life, if for no reason other than the acquired number of times over the years one has had the opportunity to be stupid and totally screw up.

Therefore it could be comfortably stated, “ If one is “older” and “smarter,” it simply means they have made more mistakes, and been wrong more times, and fortunately learned from those errors.

So the secret is to;

1) Live long

2) Make lots of mistakes,

3) And most importantly, be able to recognize and learn from your own ignorance.

Or to put it another way,

“Older smarter folks are just bigger screw ups who were smart enough to learn how dumb they were.” – Ron Chapél

I appreciate the kind comments from all of you, but especially from another “old fart” like Dan Farmer who is no slouch himself.