Kenpo and Boxing

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - General' started by MJS, Jun 19, 2010.

  1. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    looks like a blanket statement to me. And I'd include Danjo in "anyone". So if you want to make a statement and say "anyone", you've got to be prepared to support your case when a specific example arises. I'd say Danjo is as good an example as anyone else...
     
  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    what part of that do you disagree with? Do you feel one ought to train tennis to improve one's baseball skills? Do you believe that nobody's kenpo includes the conditioning and alive training and contact levels that you speak of? Are you opposed to the "dirty boxing" that Danjo mentioned? He brought up a number of points, are you saying you disagree with them all?
     
  3. Entryteam

    Entryteam Yellow Belt

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    Im saying that I contend that anyone could and would benefit from boxing.... he disagrees. He makes good points, and so do I. Therefore... we have met an impasse. So, I'll agree that we disagree and move on with my life.


     
  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    OK, what about this part? I think everyone ought to study kenpo to fix whatever else it is that they are doing...do you agree with my position?

     
  5. Entryteam

    Entryteam Yellow Belt

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    I think some kenpo training would benefit someone, yes. FIX.... don't know.... but i think cross training benefits anyone.


     
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Crosstraining CAN be a benefit and I don't object to it automatically. I think it depends on what one seeks to gain from it, for what reasons.

    I personally might agree with some reasons more than others, but it's the decision of the individual to either do or not do.

    I don't believe it is necessary per se. Some people might benefit from it, others will not. Again, it depends on what their goals and reasons for training are, and it depends on how well the training they have received already meets those goals and reasons.

    Switching to a different instructor in the same art could radically alter how well the goals are being met, either for better or worse. It depends.

    There are simply too many variables. To say that crosstraining will benefit anyone is too broad. You are making that judgement based on your own biases, training history, and goals. Those variables can be quite different for other people. Crosstraining for some people could do more harm than good to their training.
     
  7. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree with this. As I've said in other posts, people could view their training a few different ways. For example...

    1) They could be content with their training on face value. Work the material thats in the system, over and over and over, and never look at anything else. They're content with the punch defenses, the grappling defenses, the weapon defenses, etc.

    2) Work the material, but dont be afraid to look outside of the box. Begin to examine the material and make sure that it makes sense to you. Can you do it with the utmost confidence? Will it work against someone trained in a specific area? Perhaps take a look at BJJ and an art, such as the FMAs, that specialize in weapons. Will your Kenpo takedown defense work against someone trained in BJJ? If so, great. If not, then figure out why not.

    For me, I'm in the #2 group. I train the basics of BJJ. I'm not ranked, nor do I choose to be. IMO, its not the color of the belt thats gonna save my ***, its the skill set. I am ranked in Arnis. I've found that by having more weapons knowledge, that I'm more in-tune to the defenses, and I've often compared the FMA and Kenpo defenses. Personally, I favor the ones from Arnis.

    I've never told anyone that they must cross train, instead, I've told people the importance of looking outside the box, and forming their own opinions on things, rather than listening to someone who's telling you, "Yes, yes, yes, these defenses WILL work!!!" Umm...thats fine...but I dont care if they work for you, I want them to work for ME, as *I* will be the one doing them to save myself. :)

    Anyways, keep up the good work with your training. Your profile says that you're ranked in Kenpo and BJJ, so its obvious that you're into cross training, and IMO, thats a good thing. :)
     
  8. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I agree with this. I've done this, and IMO, its made my Kenpo training advance ten fold.
     
  9. Entryteam

    Entryteam Yellow Belt

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    I can say that crosstraining benefits anyone because that's what i believe. No, it's not too broad. It's my opinion. If you don't like it, then we can simply agree to disagree. See how that works?

    Good training to you.


     
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    all the best.
     
  11. MattJ

    MattJ Brown Belt

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    I think part of the problem is viewpoint. Some people here are viewing their martial arts training in a broad, non art-specific context. In that view, there is nothing wrong with adding valuable assets from other styles, because the goal is not to improve XYZ style, but to improve the martial artist themself.

    Others here are taking an art-centric view, which presumes thorough enough knowledge of the chosen art to be able to recognize and formulate style-coherent improvements. This is pretty rare in my experience, but not unheard of.

    Neither one is wrong.
     
  12. K831

    K831 Black Belt

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    I agree with the statement that simply changing instructors and schools within the same style can be a big help. Having done it several times, its been interesting to see the same exact art applied in a different way, or certain aspects of that art focused on that I hadn't given much time to before.

    I am generally and advocate for (some) cross training. However, I am not an advocate ofncross training just for the sake of cross training.

    I think it very much depend on who, when and why.

    Examples;

    1.) New students to the arts in general. If I had a brand new student come into my school to learn kenpo, and ask me if I thought he should join the Muay Thai school or the Hapkido school on his free night, I would tell him to pick the one that suited him best (not just style, but atmosphere etc) and stick with it until a solid base was established. Brand new martial artists who jump right into multiple arts usually flounder and experience slower progress, in my experience. (this of course depends on drive, athleticism, time etc)

    2.) Don't just cross train because you "should". No where you are in your base art, what you feel you need to supplement it with, why you feel you have a deficit in that area, check to see if you can't fill that deficit in your own art first, and have a plan for what you want to get out of your "cross training" art. Unless it is looked at with that degree of scrutiny, I find that most students wanting to cross train simply don't understand their own style, and hadn't put the time in to fix the majority of their weakness. Cross training acted as a band aid on the symptom, not the cause.

    3.) Consider if the rifle or the shotgun approach serves you best. Many arts like Kenpo have such depth and require such mastery of mechanics that one can spend a lifetime "rifling in" on that art alone to become as proficient as the art will allow you too. Other arts are more simply learned and don't require as much attention to detail. Some students may be better served by taking the shotgun approach, ie. spread out your training and take a little pellet from this style and that.

    I think saying "everyone will benefit from cross training" is a bit too hasty. I could agree that "at some point" everyone will benefit, but I am hesitant to do so because it may not fit their goals. I suppose my statement would be "I agree that cross training in other arts after establishing solid skills in your base art will benefit anyone who wants to increase their ability to fight in a broader range of situations and contexts."

    How's that for a mouth-full.
     
  13. Hudson69

    Hudson69 Brown Belt

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    I think that both sides would benefit from cross training and looking at different techniques.
     
  14. Entryteam

    Entryteam Yellow Belt

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    I agree... there is ALWAYS more to learn.

    If you spend one month in boxing and added one or two new things to your tactical toolbox... it was a well spent month.

    Same for any other system.


     
  15. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I agree that there are people who have received poor training in kenpo or another system, and for those people, yes they would benefit from crosstraining in boxing. Actually, they'd simply benefit from finding a GOOD teacher in any system, boxing or otherwise.
     
  16. LawDog

    LawDog Master Black Belt

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    In todays society there is no one system that can "properly" cover all of the various types of street situations or can they "properly" deal with all of the various types of modern / tratitional fighters and their systems, this would take a life time to do. To say that one system can is, to me, a very broad statement.
    The reason that I say this in order to make a blanket statement like this the systems founders and / or his seniors should have encountered or crossed trained in all. In todays martial arts there are very few that have done this or have even been involved in a few "real" street confrontations. In my opinon in order to properly teach how to fight against someone from another system, old or new, either you or your instructors should have a good working knowledge of the system. Prior to a fight professional fighters will have their trainers scout out their opponents and gain knowledge about their systems techniques.
    So it is not a bad thing for a martial artist to learn about a system that they are having a problem dealing with or who want to gain more personal skills from.
    If your not into cross training, this is ok, many are not, have fun in what you do.
    If you are into cross training then enjoy it and gain any knowledge or skills that you can.
    Follow your beliefs and let others follow theirs, time will always show a true path.
    :ultracool
     
  17. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    Agreed but if your going to do it, try doing it right. Your Kenpo won't be forgotten by taking a break from it and may even benefit from a break. Train exclusively in boxing for about six months or maybe 3 exclusive months and 3 crosstraining months. The "exclusive" reasoning comes seeing the results 1st hand. As far as the hands are concerned, there is a big differance in a boxers hands vs a kickboxers hands.

    Many think they can learn how to box by taking kickboxing. We can learn "some" boxing from a kickboxing instructor but why settle for any less than quality instruction when the real thing is available.
     
  18. Sensei Payne

    Sensei Payne Black Belt

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    I didn't take the time to read all of the posts, but I did skim.

    Being that I started out with eastern style boxing, and then slowly switched to Ryukyu Kempo, i find that I am using more of a Eastern Boxing stance with Kempo take downs, and Wing Chun Striking.

    For me, its just what comes out over the years of training, so when I have started to train someone brand new off the street, with no prior training at all, I usually start with Boxing, since its what the general public is more acquainted with. Not only the familiarity of it, but it gets the heart rate up, boosts confidence and lays a ground work for basic body mechanics.
     
  19. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I am a kempoist cross training in boxing, and i have found that it helps. This is mainly because i've gotten used to training with a different atmosphere around me than the atmosphere i had during kempo. Crosstraining anything is always good, it helps teach new skills and get used to different types of attacks, as well as find your own personal style.
     
  20. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    Actually cross training is only a good idea if all of the avenues you train are subpar, and might benefit from exposure to the other. Good Kenpo training should include all of the appropriate skills of western boxing as a part of its structure, in my opinion. Otherwise. its effects are detrimental, in that you are training synapsis at cross purposes to each others applications.123
     

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