Kenpo and Boxing

Discussion in 'Kenpo / Kempo - General' started by MJS, Jun 19, 2010.

  1. MattJ

    MattJ Brown Belt

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    Yes, we agree.

    Agreed, again.

    Yes, but I didn't say it couldn't be done - I said it wasn't meaningful to do so. The smaller repetoire of boxing can be as much or more effective than kenpo if the kenpo person's training methodology is not as effective as boxing's. This goes back to your point of boxing being "inferior" for the street - it depends on *how* they've trained, as much as *what* they've trained.

    Fair enough, although that sounds like an issue for the instructor. However, the fact that they can make it work anyway, kind of works to my point..... ;)

    Well, I'm certainly not advocating over-relying on anything, just so we're clear.

    No idea where you are coming up with that. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not intentionally trying to strawman me here.

    While I get your point about efficiency, as they say, "a win is a win". The opponent "ran off" for a reason, right?

    Heh, that depends on how good your opponent is, yes? It's actually much harder to break collar bones and knees than most people realize, FWIW. Guys kick each other in the knee all the time in the UFC.

    I think you missed my point. Being sick or injured is going to 'screw you', no matter what you train. :)
     
  2. KENPOJOE

    KENPOJOE Brown Belt

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    Hi folks!
    This past tuesday I had the opportunity to train w/Mr. Frank Trejo,10th degree black belt in EPAK,who comes from a long line of boxers and was himself a boxer and kickboxer,as well as one of the multiple winners of the IKC.
    I specifically asked him about this question and had a wonderful disertation on the topic of boxing within kenpo and boxing attacks and kenpo defensive approaches to said attacks.
    some of the interesting comments from Mr. Trejo were that at first,Mr. Trejo didn't beleive that Ed Parker was a boxer because of the "Karate" way he moved! I was surprised by that because when I watched Kenpoists like Dave Hebler,David German and Al Tracy do certain techniques [such as the uppercut in 5 swords] they moved like a boxer!
    When Mr. Trejo visited Hawaii, they remembered Ed Parker as a Boxer!
    Thx to handsword for mentioning this aspect and MJS for bringing it up in this thread...wish you were there!
    I hope that I was of some service,
    KENPOJOE
     
  3. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

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    Again, then why not merely improve one's Kenpo training, and not worry about adding boxing?



    Only if they are in top form. It's when they are not in top form that they need to have better technique.


    Okay.



    No "straw man" I'm taking what you said litterally: "Heh, that is a good point, but if you're sick or infirmed, then you probabaly ARE screwed in reality, yes? Predators do not pick on those that are in shape and represent a threat, as you noted earlier. Being in shape is something that I regard as the first line of self-defense, not just in being able to withstand an attack, but in discouraging them in the first place. :) "

    You're saying that if you are not in good shape or if you're injured or sick then you are screwed, and that if you are in shape, then you will not be attacked. This implies that being in shape is the only thing that matters because if you're in shape then no training is needed since no one will attack you, and if you're not in good shape or are sick etc., then your training won't matter because you're "screwed"



    I'll take any win I can get also, however, I would rather be able to end things more decisively than to rely on the other guy running off.



    Well, firstly, I'll disagree about collar bones. I've had mine broken with little effort and I've broke other's without much effort also (not even trying to). As to the knees in the UFC, we're not talking about a Muy Thai roundhouse to the knee on an opponent that knows what to expect, we're talking about a stomping heel kick to the side of the knee to someone that isn't ready for it.


    See my reply above. Also, I disagree. I'd rather not be sick or injured if someone attacks me, but I train to be able to defend myself if I am.
     
  4. MattJ

    MattJ Brown Belt

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    Ok, but that's fairly undefined. In the scope of this thread, one might use boxing as a vehicle or method in which to improve one's kenpo. What would you recommend? I personally would (and did) add MMA training methodology to my kenpo, with good results.

    Not disagreeing, but it doesn't sound like that happens very often, from what you're saying.

    Off on at least two points. First, I did NOT say that being in good shape alone will prevent you from being screwed if you are sick or injured. Secondly, you wrote "This implies that being in shape is the only thing that matters because if you're in shape then no training is needed"

    That is not even close to what I said or implied, and is indeed a strawman. I meant that being in shape is a deterrent. A deterrent does not deny the need for training; it merely reduces the chances you will need it. Please don't confuse the two. Perhaps if you weren't so insecure about your training, you wouldn't feel the need to make inaccurate cheap-shots about other's training.

    Fair enough.

    Only seen it once myself in 25 years of training, but OK.

    Hmmmm.....You're reframing your own question. But luckily, I was actually thinking of Anderson Silva's fight with (?)Thales Leites, where Silva repeatedly sidekicked Leites in the knee, to no effect at all. Been used by a few others as well, with the same result.

    Not sure I understand. You disagree that being sick or injured will impede you effort to defend yourself, no matter what you train? Or you think that a only boxer's skill and abilities vanish completely if they are sick or injured?
     
  5. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

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    Well, if you take the aspects of boxing that help one become a better fighter and use them in Kenpo training, i.e., bagwork, conditioning, etc., then you don't need to learn boxing to do it.


    Not confused, it's what you said: " Predators do not pick on those that are in shape and represent a threat" You didn't say that they were reluctant to attack those who are in shape, nor did you originally say (as you just did above) that being in shape was a deterrant, you said that they don't do it. If they don't do it, then all one needs is to be in shape and then there's no problem. Don't confuse me taking what you said as ignorance on my part.

    When did I take a cheap shot at your (or anyone else's) training? What I said was "If the only way that your training benefits you is by being in such great condition that you scare off any potential attackers, then you need to train in something else IMO."

    Notice the qualifiers?

    If your training benefits you in other ways, then you are probably training in the right martial art. They're called "if/then" statements in logic.

    As to your other point: I'm not insecure in the least. I, for instance, don't recall complaining about my training, nor implying that it needed to be bolstered by something outside of the art I train in. It seems that not only are you expecting me to be able to disregard what you actually wrote, but you are also reading into my posts things I never said.



    Yeah, you're right about reframing my own question. However, I'm also not advocating an over-reliance on any one target or method of attacking it.

    Well, in common parlance, when someone says "you're screwed" if certain conditions exist, it doesn't mean that you're at a disadvantage; it means "game over". I wasn't trying to say that one isn't impeded by being sick etc., but rather one didn't have to be "screwed" if that were the case provided one had been trained to deal with an attacker in a way that didn't rely on one being healthy or in good shape.

    Perhaps we're at another of those points where we are using the same lingo to mean different things.
     
  6. MattJ

    MattJ Brown Belt

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    Hmmm. I'm not sure that makes sense. If they've taken aspects of boxing, they would have had to have learned some boxing along the way, yes? I think I actually get what you're saying, but it seems like you're splitting hairs, IMHO.

    Heh, you are indeed taking my statement totally literally, and I did not properly qualify it. I guess I assumed that both of us had been around long enough to know that there are no absolutes in martial arts. I was hoping that you would address the clear intention of my point without resorting to semantics, but in any case, I guess I'm missing the logic because right here you say:

    Hmmm.....I thought that's what I said - predators don't pick on those that look like they can fight back. Are you disagreeing with me or you?

    Fair enough, although the whole "my style needs no help" vibe comes across maybe a bit too strongly IMHO. There's no shame if it did. The creators of your style thought enough of boxing to include it, didn't they? ;)

    Fair enough.

    OK, but I think the characterization that boxers (for example) are relying on their conditioning is inaccurate. They are relying on their skill, just as we are, with their conditioning being an attribute of the type of training that they do.

    But maybe we are indeed closer to the same point than it appears. Our training seems to have run in similar lines, for all the disagreement that we have had here, LOL.
     
  7. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

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    Well, increasing the intensity of one's training and improving one;s conditioning doesn't require learning boxing, but I think we do get each other's point.

    Once again, if you'll notice my qualifier of "likely" then the whole thing becomes clear. From what you wrote in your previous post, that seems to be what you meant also. Chalk it up to miscommunication/misunderstanding.

    Yeah, but they blended it into the fabric of the art. We don't train it seperately as a distinct discipline. We have always been a "Mixed Martial Art" since the beginning. The founders got together and formed a martial art based on their various areas of expertise and used Prof. Chow's 5th degree student Adriano Emperado's Kenpo as the framework to build it on. So it wasn't really "added" to Kajukenbo as something seperate.



    Boxing is a sport that relies on endurance in order to beat down one's opponent in the hopes of out pointing them or else knocking them out. The boxers like Tyson, Foreman, Liston, Shavers etc. that could regularly knock out someone in a few seconds were rare, which is why they garnered such fame and public interest. Even then, When Tyson tried it out on the street against Mitch Green, he broke his hand. All in all, I would rather train in something else for self defense. Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with boxing as such, and we do indeed have elements of it in Kajukenbo, but even though Emperado, Tiwanak and Parker all boxed in the days before their martial arts training, they all went on to study Kenpo and Kajukenbo. That alone can tell you where they thought that boxing fit in terms of it's usefulness as a self defense art.

    But then, those guys trained seriously back then. They weren't dilettantes when it came to the martial arts like so many today are. I think that a lot of the reason that boxers are so impressive to martial artists today is because those that box, tend to take it very seriously compared to the average martial artist training at a strip mall and earning their black belt in a year.

    But like I said, to me the corrective is to train more seriously in Kenpo etc., rather than to take up boxing.
     
  8. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey Rob,

    Yes, I can relate to this. When I started training with my new teacher, he had asked me what my goals were, what I wanted to focus on with him. In addition to learning the material that was taught at his school, I had also mentioned that I wanted to focus on improving my punching skills. Our sparring that we did, was more boxing oriented, and yes, I too, ate some hard shots from him. LOL. Good stuff though, and IMO, it was a wake up call for me, due to the fact that all I had pretty much grown up with in my MA journey, was the typical point sparring stuff.

    We would often record our 'fights' and watch them after, to critique them, and I'm happy to say, that my boxing/punching ability has greatly gone up. :)

    In addition, we'll also mix it up more MMA like. So in addition to defending against the hard, fast shots coming in, I'm not only working on offense and defense, but also entering in to clinch, work knees, elbows, etc.
     
  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Hey Joe,

    Yes, I agree, we do need to start somewhere. :) I had a similar discussion over at KT with Doc. I had said that while we should start off slow to get the basics down, it seems like some aren't taking into consideration the fact that it needs to be taken up a notch, ie: add in some resistance/aliveness.
     
  10. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Dan and Matt...you guys have a good debate going as well. I had started this thread a while ago, to address the very topic you're both discussing.
    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87719

    Anyways, since its being talked about here, I'll toss in my 2 cents. :) Regarding fitness...chances are, we're all working a 40 or more hr. work week, thus, we probably dont have all the time in the world to train, such as the guys in the UFC do, or pro boxers, etc. Those guys go to 'work' in the gym, whereas we go to an office, a school to teach, a LEO, etc.

    I do think that fitness is important, we're probably never going to reach that peak performance, so as Dan said, instead of relying on that superior strength/conditioning, we should take into consideration that not everyone is going to be the energizer bunny. LOL. I need to be able to function if I just got done working 16hrs, am totally exhausted, and some jerk decides he wants my car, I need to function if I have the flu and so on.

    I dont think that we, as martial artists need to be capable of running 10mi. but we shouldn't be gasping for air when we walk across the room either. :)
     
  11. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    Something to note about the "all encompassing" arguments, Boxing also shows up as "dirty Boxing"m now a days, and looking at that and what is implemented (along with once used, and now illegal moves), it looks very similar to martial arts' movements (Very similar). A comparison of methods of use would be interesting, especially in this debate.
     
  12. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

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    It is interesting to look at the differences between modern boxing and the old bare knuckle variety. I have dvds on both "Irish Bare Knuckle Boxing" and "Dirty Boxing/Extreme Boxing" and both are informative and pretty good. It is a lot different than the gloved sport. The area of the hand that one hits with, the chopping motions and elbows, the use of the forehand for chopping, back fisting and marking rather than jabbing for the most part, etc. etc.

    It was also a more precision fighting form than the modern variety due to not having the hands wrapped and gloved. Boxers tended to pick their openings more carefully etc. than they do now (at least the good ones who didn't just flail away).
     
  13. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    On a related note if you haven't recently I recommend everyone go back and watch Far and Away with Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. For the fights. The bareknuckle boxing scenes are pretty interesting.

    Tom Cruise also punches a horse.


    -Rob
     
  14. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

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    Of course, there's always "Foxy Boxing" to consider adding to your training. I'm constantly studying it for ideas.
     
  15. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

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    These are some of the versions of Filipino boxing. This is what my kenpo has sort of morphed into as I got deeper into Kali.
     
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  16. LawDog

    LawDog Master Black Belt

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    I live in an area thats considered a long time boxing area so I know and have also trained in both boxing and kickboxing.
    Agreed, boxing is not the best all around martial art however in the street a boxer can stand his own.
    There is no martial art that is best suited for the street. Every art has it's strong points and weak points.
    Boxers, much like the MMA boys, can take serious punishment. I have seen many boxers train well into their 50's and 60's. These older boxers do not fight in the ring anymore but they still do "club house" light matches.
    Boxing is an art, they just don't stand there and trade strikes. They use,
    *various types of blocks including "bob and weaves",
    *utilize various types of footwork,
    *apply tactics,
    *use modern training techniques
    *each school has their own "battle tested" presets,
    *practice live drills,
    *use all types of striking equipment.
    If you stand across from an equally skilled boxer you will get hurt, badly.
    :ubercool:
     
  17. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    This is kinda the point I was trying to get at with this thread. :)
     
  18. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    1. A martial artists ability to control the movements and attacks by an adversary.

    2. Having a developed sense of timing. (when to attack, how to attack, etc..)

    3. Developed patterns of attack and defense.

    4. Defensive tactics such as ducking, bobbing, weaving, and rolling with strikes.

    5. Takedowns: throws, trips, sweeps, pins, pushes, pulling, proper grips/grabs/holds, turning, twisting, grappling and choking. The use of mat work and offensive and defensive ground work (Which I have noticed. Many grapplers I know focus on the offensive side and not so much defensive. This is evident when watching MMA stuff. They grapple, if not applying, they seem clueless and basic. Also noted was off balancing techniques.

    6. Using the opponent's attack against them.

    7. Using different strikes and executing them properly (This ties in to training the basics properly)

    8. Sense development. (awareness training for immediate response)

    9. Proper footwork and patterns, like staying on the balls of the feet instead of flat footed. (Karate vs Boxing)

    10. Physical Body development--to withstand punishment. (I've seen this debate on these forums many times-lol) (goes to commercialization debates too)

    11. Utilizing SPECIFIC hand and foot combinations (Karate vs. Boxing training methods)

    12. Use of feints, deflections, parries, leading and misleading tactics. The claim is also that many styles were too strict in systemized sequences, making them predictable, and leaving no room for Tailoring to one's specifics (This was a good debate to!)

    13. Development of proper breathing.

    14. Getting familiar with the major and lesser know vital areas.

    15. Using both hands to block and strike at the same time.

    16. Chi development as it increases inner strength.

    This all came out of Count Dante's Book "World's Deadliest Fighting Secrets" (1968) in the things lacking in the arts section. In spite of the man and book, I think there are some valid points here which have been debates, so I'm interested on any thoughts? Discussions? Opinions? It fits right into this debate too.
     
  19. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd say alot of that can already be found in Kenpo, although a few things may not be focused on as much, ie: the grappling and staying on the balls of your feet for better movement and some stuff isn't, from what I've seen, focused on at all in Kenpo, ie: bobbing/weaving.
     
  20. Entryteam

    Entryteam Yellow Belt

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    Anyone who says that a kenpo person would NOT benefit from some boxing training has lost his mind.123
     

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