Kempo Jujitsu/ Cross-training with Bujinkan Ninjutsu

Discussion in 'KenpoTalk' started by Ryan_, Jun 5, 2018.

  1. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    I am not going to get into a muck figh with you over the Bujinkan or Ninjutsu ok ...I'm not ill informed lol (blind without my glasses lol) Yes the word "conned" was strong and needed to be rephrased but apart from that all I said can stand up ...
     
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. These are historically verified Koryu arts that Takamatsu (Hatsumi’s teacher) is known to be a credentialed master in. (They aren’t “ninjutsu” arts, but only 3 of the claimed 9 arts which make up the foundation of the Bujinkan are supposedly ninjutsu.)

    We don’t know whether the other systems which are listed under the Bujinkan’s auspices have a history preceding Takamatsu, but those 2 are legit.
     
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  3. dunc

    dunc Blue Belt

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    Cool and thanks

    Apologies - I didn't mean to suggest that you were in informed, just that a lot of posters on this subject seem not to have done much research

    Separate question, but have you looked into the research done by Kacem and Sean that I referenced to & if so what are your thoughts?
     
  4. Ryan_

    Ryan_ Green Belt

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    As for why I started martial arts-
    I originally studied Kong Soo Do when I was very young (around 7, I think) because I was getting bullied so my parents let me learn that so I could learn to defend myself. I eventually left there due to personal reasons, and started learning Bujinkan due to me wanting to get back into MA of some form.
     
  5. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    We all have our reasons for studying our Arts and they are all personal and it is a personal journey what we get out of them too ...

    The question I would suggest you ask yourself is why if you are just starting in the organisation and discipline you are do you feel you want to cross train ...

    Forget the muck fights on lineage or credibility etc ... there has to be a reason that you feel so early on that you wish to cross train ...Only you can answer that question to yourself ...it does not matter what anyone else says (we all have and do have differing opinions and advice lol) ... All I would say and ask is why so early on ? ... Do you feel something is lacking in the system you are training in (no not knocking it at all just posing a uestion to ask himself) as so early on you are not going to see and get everything ... Patience may hold the key !!!??? Going to another system at the same time would it not more confuse as opposed to add to?

    I know even to this day as I have started by adding another discipline the instructor is forever having to say to me wrong stance and youe moving on your balls (feet) you should be on your heels. What I am trying to say is it confusing to me lol (ok I'm thick and old lol) but if I had done that at the start it could and may well have totally thrown me and then I would have achieved little ...

    Just my thoughts as to things and maybe what you should be asking yourself before turning to others... get the answers from yourself then ask away ...if there is something missing then ask the folks where can I find that etc ....

    anyways good luck and I hope you find your system/art and the answers from within
     
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  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Would this traditional Koryu art look anything at all like the black pyjamas training I would actually do should I walk in to a bujinkan dojo?
     
  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It depends on the individual school. Some actually teach specific (2 person) katas from the original arts. Some are more focused on moves which are based on the principles of the older arts as interpreted by Hatsumi or the teachers under him. I think that this process of creative interpretation can sometimes get pretty far from the original source.

    I have been told that when Takamatsu created his own branch of the older arts that he did make significant technical changes. Whether anyone but a student of another branch of Kukushin Ryu or Takagi Yoshin Ryu would notice those changes, I don’t know.

    I do know that the training culture of the Bujinkan is significantly different from the koryu arts in general. However there is a genuine connection to the historical arts.
     
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  8. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    All the Koryu have changed over time ...they have evolved to suit the times in which they are in /were in ...From the early years of the Tokugawa era (Edo period) they were not really needed as such and the Tokugawa for obvious reasons wanted the schools curbed to an extent ...I dont think I need to go into how they ran Japan and why it very well known. There were still shinobi-no-mono for sure but the numbers declined. From the time of the Meiji restoration onwards esp after the acts that basically "stopped" the Samurai class the shinobi-no-mono basically disappeared as well as they were no longer needed.

    Was Takamatsu shinobi-no-mono that I think is open to debate ...was he a skilled MA yes probably however again some of his exploits are again very open to debate. Is Hatsumi shinobi-no-mono ...no he is not ...is he Takamatsu's successor yes but as to if he has carried on it as Koryu in the schools he teaches ...again very open to debate.

    There is no hand to hand combat in Ninjutsu (read the shinobi scrolls and I don't think you will find any !!!) ...Shinobi were on the most part Samurai (ok lower class) or Ashigaru they were not Hinin (ok some maybe fell into that after the reduction and then the collapse of the Samurai class) and there were I do not think any total Sinobi schools (not even at the time of the Iga and Koka ) Shinobi techniques were taught yes but as part of a Ryu not as a stand alone.

    I guess the Bunjinkan gave and still does in certain terms give of the impression that it is a Ninja school ... It is not and never was or will be.

    As far as the black pj's lol well possibly they may have worn black (makes sense at night ) but if they were going in during daylight then they would have worn what they locals wore or whatever "army" they were infiltrating wore down even to the same style of embroidery and sword cords ...and all the rubbish about the mask is just that lol as in none of the scrolls is there any mention of that nor in any of the art work of the time that (I know of). You might think as it the iconic thing they might just have shown it or mentioned it in the scrolls lol!!!

    This is going to probably stir up muck but well I gonna say it anyway ... The Saaki test that Hatsumi did or does is well best described as what comes out of a bulls backside lol... I have no doubt that there are people who can sense things and preempt but his test is well as I said.

    The Bunjinkan was formed I think in the 80's and that should tell something in itself lol... and it it did ride on the coat tails of the movie ...and comic industries and vice versa ...do they teach things that work...that up to the individual to decide are some of the schools descended from Koryu ... yes and no

    The Bunjinkan is what it is and no more ...but it will always stir up serious debate and conflict as to what it is
     
  9. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    Oh and may aswell add that the iconic ninja sword (ninjato) it don't exist in reality lol...that an invention ...they used swords and yep possibly if they were going indoors they would carry a shorter one lol... and it may or may not have had a square tsuba ... but that would have been for practical reasons as if anyone has been in a traditional japanese house ...it has low beams ...so weilding a full size katana ummm it might get stuck and that be a bit of a problem lol so they probably did use a shorter version , it has been suggested that they may even have used a sword like that fashioned out of a naginata blade ...but a ninjato as portrayed ummm no ...and surprise surprise none of them have been found lol...plenty of that era of katana etc but no ninjato lol .............!!!!!!!!!
     
  10. Ryan_

    Ryan_ Green Belt

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    Reason I want to cross-train is mainly for competition which there is very little of in Bujinkan.

    However, I got the information I was looking for from this thread and thanks to those who contributed.
     
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  11. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    Then you have just answered the question to yourself ... Look to the arts that have a competition element and if that is what you wish to pursue then to be any good at that you may have to switch styles as confusion may enter the field ...just a thought
     
  12. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, from what I understand the straight “ninjato” is a product of stage and film.

    However, it’s also not something normally used in the Bujinkan either. Some of Steve Hayes’s early books mention them, but he wasn’t actually a very experienced practitioner at the time he wrote those and they contain a fair amount of misinformation.
     
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  13. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    the first appearance of the "ninjato" was actually in a comic lol...I forget the one but it was from the 50's I think (I stand to be corrected on that) ...Stephen Hayes took a lot of heat on what you refer to and that was due in part to guess who lol... he really took alot of very unfair heat on that as he did not invent it etc ...that was done in Japan lol
     
  14. dunc

    dunc Blue Belt

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    The Togakure Ryu sword is a particular style - shorter (curved) blade, standard length handle and scabbard
    Hatsumi has been very consistent on this, he's published dimensions etc publicly and in over 25 years of visiting him in Japan I've never seen him or any of his students talk about a straight ninjato

    However, Hatsumi-sensei does talk about the historical evolution of swords in Japan and simplistically they evolved from straight blades to curved tachi to katana, with a bit of polarms thrown in for good measure. The length of the blades changed over time as well. Sometimes he shows how the techniques would change according to the characteristics of the sword that you're using. Maybe this is where Hayes got it from...
     
  15. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    No buddy he didn't get it from there lol ....I'm not going to go into it big time but he took alot of heat for that and it genuinely wasn't his fault ...

    There is and always will be controversy surrounding Hatsumi ...just bear in mind the way the Japanese do things ...By that I mean it is face and that should more or less say it all ....no one in Japan will publicly say much as it loses face and as Hatsumi has been honoured then if they do then they lose face ...it is enough to know that he knows that they know and if that don't make sense then ...well you don't get how things work there lol....(and that is not a personal slur on you btw)
     
  16. dunc

    dunc Blue Belt

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    I'd genuinely be interested to know how how the straight ninja sword thing came around
    As someone who's been kicking around the buj for many years with good connections in Japan (& some understanding of how things work there culturally) my conclusion is that it was most probably a misunderstanding stemming from the discussion of the broader evolution of swords in Japan

    I have only ever seen the Togakure Ryu sword being positioned as having a shorter curved blade, normal sized handle & scabbard
    FWIW some swords of this style have survived, but probably other ryu / people used similar tactics too
     
  17. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If your goal is to compete, im seconding (fourthing?) The judo idea. And this is coming from someone with a kempo-jujitsu background. Theres just a better competitive field for judo
     
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  18. Ryan_

    Ryan_ Green Belt

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    I've not seen this ninjato thing either!

    I forgot my town (actually next town but walking distance) also has kickboxing, so those 2 will be considered once I'm satisfied with my bujinkan basics not to slow down my progress
     
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  19. oldwarrior

    oldwarrior Green Belt

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    Is your school teaching any sword???

    The other poster and I were discussing a certain part of a debate that has been going on for quite some time and if you don't know about it then stay outta it lol....as it before your time and well I'd just leave it and concentrate on your system or any other you feel you wish to study
     
  20. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    See that red bit next to @Ryan_ in the message header, that says [op]?

    That means he started the thread (so no part of it is "before his time"), it's also kind of his to direct if he so chooses - it was partly your contribution that mildly took the thread off topic here.

    Maybe do a bit of research about who is posting before telling them to keep out of it?123
     
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