Kata and Forms...?

[Black Belt Jedi]

I find kata to be very important as learning self-defense because kata gives you a good work out when performing it full out and gives you good benefits. Kata training also gives you body memory and muscle memory along with timing, coordination, balance and pace. Kata training is used to record moves from the Acts of Physical Violence. Being able to learn various analysis of the moves can make sense of way you doing this move and that move. IMO, it is more convenient for a student to learn various analysis/applications from random templates as much as possible before learning the first kata. That's what I do when I teach a new student Karate.

 

[Cyriacus]

I find kata to be very important as learning self-defense because kata gives you a good work out when performing it full out and gives you good benefits. Kata training also gives you body memory and muscle memory along with timing, coordination, balance and pace. Kata training is used to record moves from the Acts of Physical Violence. Being able to learn various analysis of the moves can make sense of way you doing this move and that move. IMO, it is more convenient for a student to learn various analysis/applications from random templates as much as possible before learning the first kata. That's what I do when I teach a new student Karate.

I Agree.
Just to Lightly Expand, Kata, like anything of the sort, are Compartmentalised Functionality. As such, Aspects of all Kata should work in Step Sparring; Perhaps better showing their Capability (Or, more Obviously, rather)

 

[lma]

There is kumite without kata. There is no kata without kihon . From what I have seen of martial arts that learn "patterns" and not kata it is not essential. They use at as a quick way to practice in the house and yes there are so many other ways to do this , shadow box and so on. Kata though and especially how we get taught helps you do more than learn muscle memory, fitness , movement and other physical things. The mental side is strong for two reasons particular automatic reactions. So I have "imagined" some one kicking me from the side a million times from the side in kion kata. This has override my flight or fight (ur first naturual reaction) reactions to a down block and punch. Yes I could have maybe learned it in sparring but its impractical and slow going if you practicing against multiple attackers. Also with there being many bunkai for each it gets you thinking outside the box .

 

[kungfu penguin]

i think mma practitioners dont understand kata. when they do those various bag drills over and over thousands of times arent they doing kata striking, evading, footwork, blocking, breathing, balance sounds like kata to me. also groundfighters wether practicing armbar triangle kimura or any other of the 100s of things they do hundreds of hours to be able to perform it in a smoker or tournament. wrestlers too, thye do double legs single legs clinch firemans toss cross faces, etc... 1000s of time to perfect it again sounds like kata to me

 

[Tez3]

i think mma practitioners dont understand kata. when they do those various bag drills over and over thousands of times arent they doing kata striking, evading, footwork, blocking, breathing, balance sounds like kata to me. also groundfighters wether practicing armbar triangle kimura or any other of the 100s of things they do hundreds of hours to be able to perform it in a smoker or tournament. wrestlers too, thye do double legs single legs clinch firemans toss cross faces, etc... 1000s of time to perfect it again sounds like kata to me

A lot of MMA do understand kata, many come from a traditional background like myself, some of us do MMA and TMA so please don't bring that 'oh MMA people don't understand stuff' here, there's just as many TMA people who don't understand kata as they don't do the Bunkai for it.
Why does MMA get held up when someone wants to point out ignorance, MMA people are martial artists too.
What on earth is a 'smoker'?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hello,

Would like to get an idea of the importance that is placed on kata and forms by the various practitioners, and systems, represented here.

On another forum the subject was brought up. Looking for more input.

Kata/Forms:

1) Necessary?
2) Very useful?
3) Somewhat useful?
4) Slightly useful?
5) Totally useless?

If so, or not, why???

Trying to find the "general" consensus.

Thanks, in advance for your assistance and input!

Milt G.

Here is my input;

If one looks at forms from a block/punch/kick perspective then forms are only slightly useful and are often relegated to the 'do a form, get the next colored belt'. It becomes a class filler.

If however, one looks at forms from the perspective of each form holding information beyond b/p/k such as throws, chokes, balance displacement etc, then each form now opens up an entirely new world of information. Many 'founding father' of Karate only studied or taught a very few kata. Uechi Sensei once stated that to truly know Karate, one had only to study Seisan kata.

Less is often more from the right perspective.

 

[Tez3]

Here is my input;

If one looks at forms from a block/punch/kick perspective then forms are only slightly useful and are often relegated to the 'do a form, get the next colored belt'. It becomes a class filler.

If however, one looks at forms from the perspective of each form holding information beyond b/p/k such as throws, chokes, balance displacement etc, then each form now opens up an entirely new world of information. Many 'founding father' of Karate only studied or taught a very few kata. Uechi Sensei once stated that to truly know Karate, one had only to study Seisan kata.

Less is often more from the right perspective.

I've often heard that said about Naihanchi as well, 'the perfect kata', that it contains everything you need to defend yourself.

 

[seasoned]

Many systems have many kata. From a personal preference, once you fine the right kata for you, and your body type, that kata, becomes your "favorite kata". From a Sensei perspective, their mission is to learn all kata within their system, pass them all down to their students along with full knowledge of bunkai within each kata. As the student becomes advanced it is the job of the Sensei to direct this student toward a kata that best fits that individuals needs and body type, while in turn introducing that student to their "favorite kata". This is the way I was taught, and it is the way I teach.............

 

[WC_lun]

Form is like any other tool used to train martial arts. If the training tool is used properly then it is an important part of training, though not the most important part. If used improperly, then it is worse than useless and can be thrown out.

If you want to know if form is being used correctly to train, are the principles being taught in your form apparent in your heavy sparring? If not, then the form training is not being applied and therefore a waste of time and you should concentrate elsewhere.

 

[chinto]

I was trained that in the Okinawan systems of karate at least, and in the 'classical kata's', as opposed to the so called tournament kata that some have come up with for flash and such, there are at least 5 hidden techniques for every single move in the kata.

whether you are talking about tamari type systems like Shobayashi or Shuri systems like Matsumura Seito, you could spend a year of every night for 2 hours working on say Chinto kata finding everything hidden in there and still have more to learn from just that one kata.

 

[Kinghercules]

Well, since this is the Japanese Martial Arts forum, and most Japanese martial arts are transmitted through the use of kata, I think that your response is going to be overwhelmingly in favor of kata. I practice Japanese sword arts, and all of the koryu (classic) arts utilize kata as their main form of transmission.

Well I train in Tang Soo Do Tae Kwon Do and I think forms are important for ones training.

 

[Kinghercules]

For me forms help you with your trainin and show your lineage.
I was always told that fighting and forms go hand in hand. How you do your forms is how you fight.
Some forms are for long rang fightin, close in fightin, balance, power, conditioning & speed.

 

[72ronin]

#1.

An absolute must in my opinion, they provide a solid foundation to work from.

 

[Jason Striker II]

As several members have remarked, it very much depends 1) on the particular MA, and 2) what you want to get out of that art.

If you are practicing any form of Okinawan or Japanese Karate, my answer would be that Kata is *vital*.

Another point no one has mentioned: Kata you can do your whole life; I have been in classical Karate for 42 years, so I have some experience here. In many other arts people simply drop out of them because beyond competition and drills of various types (partner or with equipment) there is nothing else. Kata is always doable.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Kata is the foundation that you build from. Without kata you areimply a fighter ( and there is nothing wrong with just being a fighter) but you have missed some important training if you want to be a complet martial person.
Kata not only helps one learn proper movement but there is a mental side to kata also.
There is also much in some kata that one learns from experence that is not shown when one first learns these forms. Yes, you may learn the same lessons without kata but then again you may not.

 

[FabianosKarate]

I say #2. We take a LOT of examples from our katas and have extremely practical uses for them.

 

[enthusiast]

When I was in taekwondo, I have always thought that forms are very boring and never gave any time studying it, except when in the dojo(I was young back then). But when you are in an MMA gym, all you do is condition, do mitts, punch bags, roll, etc. I found this routine very unsatisfying and being the person that I am, I wanted to know about history, forms, proper execution etc. At this point, this was the point where I wanted to find a school where they still practice the forms, bowing, and other rituals, I said to myself that any martial art will do. Now that I am in Karate, I find that forms are a huge part of the discipline. I realized that martial arts isn't only about fighting but it is also about conditioning the mind and forming habits. And as many people have said before, it is where we can practice technique, balance, fundamentals, etc.

So I say 1) Necessary

 

[CTope]

Hello,

Would like to get an idea of the importance that is placed on kata and forms by the various practitioners, and systems, represented here.

On another forum the subject was brought up. Looking for more input.

Kata/Forms:

1) Necessary?
2) Very useful?
3) Somewhat useful?
4) Slightly useful?
5) Totally useless?

If so, or not, why???

Trying to find the "general" consensus.

Thanks, in advance for your assistance and input!

Milt G.

Very necessary. They prepare you for fighting and competition. Repetitive practice of basic or advanced katas gets students used to block and encountering. They also give students different combos to use instead of the same one over and over. Your opponent will catch on to your techniques if you throw the same moves during a fight.

 

[Paul_D]

Very necessary. They prepare you for fighting and competition. Repetitive practice of basic or advanced katas gets students used to block and encountering. They also give students different combos to use instead of the same one over and over. Your opponent will catch on to your techniques if you throw the same moves during a fight.

Depends on the art. None of this is true for karate kata.

Karate Kata is designed for self defence from non consensual criminal violence, not fighting. Not for use against trained martial artist who will "catch on" to your moves during a fight, and there are no blocks.

 

[Tez3]

Depends on the art. None of this is true for karate kata.

Karate Kata is designed for self defence from non consensual criminal violence, not fighting. Not for use against trained martial artist who will "catch on" to your moves during a fight, and there are no blocks.

This absolutely.

Repetitive practice of basic or advanced katas gets students used to block and encountering

As Paul has already said, not in karate. I'm not sure how you can get used to blocking etc when you are practising on your own.