Karate vs TKD

[DaveB]

Complaining already?



The Gracies didn't care, they risked getting knocked out just like anyone else. This was more than a trial & error process, it was the time that dispelled much of the TMA's balogna. And it changed the world of Martial Arts. 25 years now, what a long *** "fad".



Typical excuse. So where were all these superhuman TMA fighters? They were all biding their time for the right moment right? And UFC 1-4 wasn't the "right time"....only paying $60,000 to the winner for the night....so that's about $106,000 in today's money for ONE night of fighting. These "great representatives" of TMA were what....too busy holding seminars for 15-20 people, of which at least 10 of them are their helpers, family & students = non paying? Too busy selling VHS tapes of secret techniques? Making what, $0 to $10,000 per year teaching TMA?

How much did Karate prize point fighters make in 1993, fighting in a rented Middle School gym on a Sunday? $0 + a trophy? National championship, then make that a rented High School gym on a Saturday. How much do they make today, in 2018? About the same? Oh but the UFC 1-4 was def. not worth their time right?



There were no disqualifying rules in the early UFC's. TKD or any TMA could have done anything they wanted to win.



The UFC has a roster of 500+ fighters, name 100 fighters that fits this description. That's only 20%, surely you can name 100 if this is such a phenomenon right? How about 10%, can you name at least 50 fighters?

As I said, not worth the effort.

You and I are having completely different conversations, most of yours being in your head.
You even quoted someone who called mma a fad, but it wasn't a word that appears in any of my posts.

So you enjoy whatever high you get out of telling the world how terrible tma is. It is clearly all you are here for.

 

[Martial D]

So are you saying that everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?

No. No I'm not. What?

 

[DaveB]

No. No I'm not. What?

Then I can't help you because I can't see how you can miss the contradiction between what you posted and what fried rice posted.

 

[Martial D]

Then I can't help you because I can't see how you can miss the contradiction between what you posted and what fried rice posted.

Because there isn't one...at least not one you've been able to point out.

And your last post made no sense. I said techniques contained within boxing, Mt, bjj and wrestling' how did you possibly read that as: "everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?"

I feel like you didn't read the post you replied to.

 

[DaveB]

Because there isn't one...at least not one you've been able to point out.

And your last post made no sense. I said techniques contained within boxing, Mt, bjj and wrestling' how did you possibly read that as: "everyone who fights in mma is fighting with a method that comes entirely from boxing?"

I feel like you didn't read the post you replied to.

I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.

FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.

You said that they do exist in mma already and gave examples.

Pretty straightforward contradiction there.

So not only don't you see the contradiction you didn't see the post where I pointed it out.

Fried rice expressly took issue with me suggesting there were other ways of fighting, assuming I meant tma fighting styles.

Meanwhile you were giving examples of how the kind of variety I was discussing was happening now.

Variety not happening ≠ Variety happening.

 

[drop bear]

Ok. There is boxing dogma. But it doesn't define boxing. Same with MMA so long as you are within the rules you can go buck wild conceptually.

If we are discussing hands up. Pacman doesn't that much.

 

[Martial D]

I commented that there were other waY's to fight than those dictated by boxing dogma.

FR suggested that such other methods didn't exist in many. "where are these other ways of fighting" "...where have they been the last 25 years" etc.

You said that they do exist in mma already and gave examples.

Pretty straightforward contradiction there.

Perhaps if you quoted exact words it would help you. You are mixing up the timeline, and what responses were to whom.

You said my contradiction was with a totally different post dude.

 

[DaveB]

Their techniques lack power, their hands aren't protecting their upper body, they're over-dependent on kicking, and their foundation is laughable. The way they're fighting is going to lead to a fist in the face or an easy takedown by a grappler. Sparring like that can lead to serious problems when they really need to use their techniques. I understand when you're sparring for fun or practice, but sparring in that fashion simply leads to very bad habits.

translation,,,, its not mma, so everything they do is therefore rubbish

Well there's always one isn't there ;p

Mma has changed over time and it will continue to do so.

Eventually the dogmatic rules that boxing brought with it on its way in to mma will be gotten over as people realise that there is more than one way to fight.

I think we are there already. Within competitive MMA, there are vastly different successful styles of fighting already happening.

What ways to fight are not already there that would be attained by shucking said 'dogmatic rules'?

MMA started out as a free for all and got destroyed by BJJ. Then Muay Thai was brought into the mix + BJJ to dominate year 5-15 (approx). And for the past 10+ years, it's been dominantly Boxing + Wrestling with BJJ & MT dropping down to secondary arts.

These many other ways of fighting had their chances in years 1-5 (esp. year 1) when it was potluck, bullshido, anything goes almost; where you can write down as many Black Belt degrees and fake & real fight experience as you wanted on the registration and Bruce Buffer woulda announced it.

So what happened to all these other ways of fighting? They've laying low for the past 25 years, just waiting for the right moment to strike and bring home all the $$$ and glory to their style?

It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.

Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.

As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.

There are some fighters that successfully utilize mostly kicks and keep their hands low and barely punch.

Elias Theodorou is one example off the top of my head.

I don't know if it's a stylistic thing, but when you write things like the above it feels like you have such a skewed view of the things you're discussing that the work it would take to discuss them is just too much.

I don't see anything false or unsound about his argument here. Where do you see a disconnect?

Your own posts contradict his point.

 

[Martial D]

bunch of quotes

I think I see where you got confused.

My first post there was a reply to you. I don't believe there are any dogmatic rules of boxing that influence MMA, nor that those rules, were they to exist, preclude any 'styles of fighting' from MMA. My post about how some people keep their hands low and prefer to kick was to show that there are already many styles of fighting contained within MMA.

You still haven't answered the question I posed at the end of that first post.

SO when rice made his post that basically documents some facts and a timeline about MMA(that is hard to dispute) it was clear that he was also talking about these phantom 'styles of fighting' that are precluded by 'boxing dogma', that you again, have yet to explain.

No contradictions present here.

 

[Azulx]

Okay so as far as I know neither of these guys are grand masters. I don't know how much they train but I have no reason to suspect that they are anything other than average examples of their arts.

My question is what do you think about their sparring?

How do you rate their tactics and techniques?

What do you think either should have done differently?

Thank you for posting this, it's great to see how far I've come over a year ago. Some thing to keep in mind: this was purely for fun against one of my close friends who has about three times more martial arts experience than me. This was about four months after I received my first dan. I'd like to think I've improved since then , but I am still very much a beginner in many things.

Great to see people still watch my videos though!

 

[dvcochran]

Exactly what I meant.

Very funny. I had never heard the word before and it did not show up on Webster's so I went to the Urban dictionary.

 

[DaveB]

I think I see where you got confused.

My first post there was a reply to you. I don't believe there are any dogmatic rules of boxing that influence MMA, nor that those rules, were they to exist, preclude any 'styles of fighting' from MMA. My post about how some people keep their hands low and prefer to kick was to show that there are already many styles of fighting contained within MMA.

You still haven't answered the question I posed at the end of that first post.

Yes I did, but you are so fixated on your tma vs mma fetish that it skipped you by.

In the list of quotes I posted my response to your question is right after fried rice's post.

In it I tell you I'm not talking about styles to be added to mma.
That I think people get caught up in ideas of how to fight that come from boxing and don't easily understand or appreciate other ways of doing things like fighting with a low guard.

If you don't believe that some people limit their ideas of effective fighting based on what works in a particular combat sport, that's your prerogative. It doesn't change my view.

SO when rice made his post that basically documents some facts and a timeline about MMA(that is hard to dispute) it was clear that he was also talking about these phantom 'styles of fighting' that are precluded by 'boxing dogma', that you again, have yet to explain.

No contradictions present here.

Except that I never mentioned any phantom fighting styles. All I mentioned was increased variety, not that it would come from tma or any other fighting arts. That was you guy's assumption, and that assumption is the root of your confusion.

Where all I'm talking about is greater variety in fighting methods not extra-mma fighting styles, your comments and fried rice's sit in opposition to each other.

My comments had a context, the discussion of the video and the use/need for a low guard. That's why I included Hanzou's post: context.

Drop Bear has only just chimed in and he got the context of a discussion about raised/lowered guard.

You and fried rice ignored that context because you guys are desperate to find your phantom deluded tma student that you can Destroy in a debate about why tma is better than mma.

No one cares. As FR points out those that didn't know had 25 years to learn the lessons of mma. We get it, "Sparring Good!".

 

[DaveB]

Thank you for posting this, it's great to see how far I've come over a year ago. Some thing to keep in mind: this was purely for fun against one of my close friends who has about three times more martial arts experience than me. This was about four months after I received my first dan. I'd like to think I've improved since then , but I am still very much a beginner in many things.

Great to see people still watch my videos though!

Thanks for sharing.

I thought you both gave a fair representation of your respective art's sport fighting styles. Not perfect but not bad either.

My biggest piece of advice to 1-year-ago you would have been to increase your hip flexibility as it looked like your techniques are being restricted a little, and to make more use of back leg power techniques.

But you did well to keep him at bay with various lead leg techniques. It would be very interesting to see you two spar again a year on.

In particular though I was interested in the response from the forum because there had been some recent discussions about the importance of sparring and particularly sport sparring.

I was curious to see if your two competitive sparring methods satisfied those who suggested that as key for traditional arts.

 

[Martial D]

Yes I did, but you are so fixated on your tma vs mma fetish that it skipped you by.

Ok, it's obvious this isn't going anywhere productive. If you insist on telling me what I meant by what I said, despite the fact I've already clarified it for you, I guess I'll leave you to your psychic gifts.

BTW I AM a TMA guy. So much for paying attention lol.

 

[punisher73]

This guy disagrees....

Hmmm, somehow showboating is not indicative of having a guard position. But, RJJ was very unique with very fast reflexes that he did quite often drop both of his hands to draw the opponent into attacking. RJJ fought out of the Philly Shell much of the time that keeps one hand to protect the head and the other covers the midsection.

 

[hoshin1600]

In particular though I was interested in the response from the forum because there had been some recent discussions about the importance of sparring and particularly sport sparring.

I was curious to see if your two competitive sparring methods satisfied those who suggested that as key for traditional arts.

what has been repeated over and over on this sight is that sparring is an important role in knowing if what your doing is effective, often also referred to as pressure testing.
in my previous post i said "this is point sparring, i will comment on it as such" between the lines of my comment is the implied meaning that what was shown is not an effective method to use for honing self defense skills.
the first problem we as a group have is having a common language with an understood meaning. we all use the term sparring but we have completely different visions of what that means in our minds when we use the word. an important key is that to build self defense skills, sparring must ALSO be pressure testing. in Azlux's video it is sparring but it is not pressure testing.

 

[punisher73]

It's less about what is to be added and more what is to be recognised.

Hanzou's criticism was routed in a lack of appreciation for fighting styles that weaponise distance. A high guard is not important if your opponent is too far away to hit you, yet the lack of a guard is often still a point of criticism.

As a wider range of fighting methods become more commonly understood there will be less criticism based on a boxing perspective.

You disagree, but don't make any comments on "why". You make a point to argue having your hands down when out of striking range, yet when viewing the video that was not the case, which is why I made my point. I am not arguing that you can't lower your hands when you are out of striking range. Those guys WERE IN STRIKING RANGE and still had their hands down. You don't see this constant hands down stuff outside of the context I said. We can find exceptions to the rule based on individual fighters and specific circumstances, but you will not find a champion fighter anywhere that does it ALL THE TIME like those guys were.

It has nothing to do with not understanding their methods. It has to do with crappy sparring habits. Those guys were in range much of the time for both kicks and punches and were busy bouncing around with their hands down. Rewatch the video, and look for how many times they are in range and white charges in with punches to the body that would have gone to the face in any other combat sport context. They were NOT using any type of footwork or angles or draws with their hands to support the tactics of their hands being down.

Again, we can all find examples of when champs drop their hands for specific reasons or that had super attributes and reflexes that they could get away with it. Most of the time (like the Pac-man video shows) they are unloading offensive punches and then put their hands back up when going defensive. That is different than being in striking range and doing nothing with your hands down.

 

[CB Jones]

You disagree, but don't make any comments on "why". You make a point to argue having your hands down when out of striking range, yet when viewing the video that was not the case, which is why I made my point. I am not arguing that you can't lower your hands when you are out of striking range. Those guys WERE IN STRIKING RANGE and still had their hands down. You don't see this constant hands down stuff outside of the context I said. We can find exceptions to the rule based on individual fighters and specific circumstances, but you will not find a champion fighter anywhere that does it ALL THE TIME like those guys were.

It has nothing to do with not understanding their methods. It has to do with crappy sparring habits. Those guys were in range much of the time for both kicks and punches and were busy bouncing around with their hands down. Rewatch the video, and look for how many times they are in range and white charges in with punches to the body that would have gone to the face in any other combat sport context. They were NOT using any type of footwork or angles or draws with their hands to support the tactics of their hands being down.

Again, we can all find examples of when champs drop their hands for specific reasons or that had super attributes and reflexes that they could get away with it. Most of the time (like the Pac-man video shows) they are unloading offensive punches and then put their hands back up when going defensive. That is different than being in striking range and doing nothing with your hands down.

So to clarify....when you said only....you meant sometimes.

 

[punisher73]

So to clarify....when you said only....you meant sometimes.

Nope, my position would be if you are in striking range, then the hands are in a higher guard position (I consider the Philly Shell also as a higher guard position because it is protecting the face and upper body) and not below the waist and my initial statement was that the only time you see two guys that have their hands at or below their waist the entire time, even within striking distance, is in a sports sparring context when punches are not allowed to the face. Dropping the hands like RJJ to draw an attack is not a guard position. Dropping the hands when out of striking range or not engaged is not a guard position. Moving the hands down and about for striking angles while punching is not a guard position.

just to clarify..

 

[FriedRice]

.....

Learn how to use the quote function first.