Karate is kata, kata is karate

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Bill Mattocks, Sep 17, 2019.

  1. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,544
    Likes Received:
    2,554
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    To me.
     
  2. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,837
    Likes Received:
    502
    Trophy Points:
    178
    kata the bedrock.
    it gives rise to the other two.
    kihon and kumite are derived from kata.
    but all three together form the core of karate.
    and i would agree with the old masters about makiwara, as being essential too.

    If i ever have a headstone, this is what i want on it.

    If your jissen or kumite is weak, go back and reunderstand your kata.

    If your solo kata is lacking in spots... pull it out and work on it as kihon sequences.

    if your kihon is poor, relearn how it is used within kata, and drill it until it is smooth and powerful.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  3. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,412
    Likes Received:
    503
    Trophy Points:
    198
    I believe that there is a word for what Bill is talking about, "Budo". The Martial Way. It becomes a lifestyle that permeates your being through the study of martial arts. Budo is not always fun and is not always done for enjoyment. I have never met a "hobbyist" who practiced their hobby when they didn't enjoy it or want to do it. That is the point of a hobby, to relax and enjoy the activity. A martial artist pursuing budo will push themselves and make it uncomfortable and do it even when its not easy or enjoyable because of that pursuit (budo).
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,412
    Likes Received:
    503
    Trophy Points:
    198
    The main website seems to be down for Mr. Goodin's blog, but here is a link to an article on Scribd. The Why of Bunkai: A Guide For Beginners

    The article is VERY good at understanding how karate started to change in its approach to bunkai with the use of labels. Originally, a student would have learned the motions of the kata and its various uses. Not all of the motions in the kata are blocks, but when you put labels on the motion, it then locks that motion into place, so to speak. Then you have all of the "tier one" applications that were not intended as a simple block/punch technique and get VERY disfunctional applications based on the tier 1 idea. For example, you are doing to separate blocks to two different attackers in multiple directions.

    Now we further the "telephone" game with karate's transmission. Funakoshi admits that he made further changes to the original kata he learned when he brought it to Japan. Funakoshi did not like free sparring that the Japanese students liked. The kumite that was introduced was based on the sport of kendo and it's distancing and relied heavily on the 'ippon kumite' idea. This is why none of the applications from their kata/kumite make sense and the sparring looks nothing like the moves from the kata. The Shuri kata that Funakoshi learned was based on civilian self-defense and the moves and applications were based on very close quarters and responses to a variety of those common attacks (McCarthy coined the terms Habitual Acts of Violence).

    So, now this changed karate is transmitted to Korea and the applications are all taught as block/punch/kick. TKD used to be heavy on the kihon and hitting hard to break whatever you touched. There wasn't much sophistication to what was taught in the early TKD days, but it was very brutal and effective. "A Killing Art" is a very good read about some of the history of TKD and its formation. As TKD evolved, they tried to remove more of the Japanese influence out of it and removed the Japanese katas and replaced them with katas of their own. Sticking with the same idea of block/punch/kick, the sequences were moved around and based on aesthetics and not a deep underlying combat strategy. This is also when the more acrobatic kicks started to be added in to TKD to emphasize an older Korean art/game and the art started to become its own style very different from its parent art of Shotokan.

    As you, and many others have seemed to notice. The kata in TKD help with body mechanics, fluidity etc. but, without reverse engineering from the older Okinawan katas (Mainly Shorin-Ryu) and trying to find sequences that look very similar and finding those applications, there IS a large void in many TKD schools. But, there are many out there that do fill the void. KKW TKD is mainly concerned with its own sport and its main focus is on the sport of TKD, just like any martial art there are exceptions to this, but by and large you won't find "old school" self-defense and applications taught and it is not taught through the vehicle of their forms.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  5. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    924
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    And this is my issue. Let's use arithmetic as an analogy. Everyone who has made it past 4th grade math knows that arithmetic is all built on itself. Subtraction is just addition with negative numbers, multiplication is just addition done faster, division is just multiplication of fractions, and exponents is just multiplication done faster. If you can add 648 + 723 on a piece of paper, then you can also add 7,567,986 + 5,824,438, it will just take longer to do.

    However, you can't teach only addition, and have students learn subtraction. Maybe a small portion will figure it out, but if that teaching isn't there, the vast majority of students won't figure it out. A small handful might figure out the pattern and realize that if 2 + 3 = 5, then 5 without 3 is 2. But most won't even be looking for that pattern, unless they find themselves at a point where they need to be able to figure it out.

    The same goes for other rules. Students may memorize that 2 + 2 + 2 is 6, but how many will extrapolate that into a rule that covers addition of all like numbers? How many will figure out how fractions work, or how to carry the 1?

    When I was in school, we learned the rules for each of these concepts, and we learned how they connected together. We received examples on how to apply it (i.e. you have 2 apples and I have 3 apples, how many apples do we have?).

    However, my experience with KKW TKD has been that the form -> application training is basically like just teaching addition. With any technique or concept in martial arts, you need guidance. That's why people don't just watch a bunch of youtube videos and practice in their basement. They have to go to class and learn. I feel bunkai is the same. Can I figure out some ideas? Sure. But without a Master to give me advice, to point out my mistakes, to tell me his experiences, and to push me in the right direction, how good is self-taught bunkai going to be? For those that do bunkai, does your Master simply show you the kata and then say "figure it out" and leave you stranded on the mat? Or are there higher belts present (at least some of the time) to give you tips and examples?

    This is why I get so defensive when people mock me for not knowing how to do bunkai. Going back to my arithmetic example, it's like I've been shown how to do addition in the forms, and nothing else. And yet somehow I'm magically expected to know how to do division and exponents, because "you've been in long enough", or else I'm told I just don't know anything because I haven't been taught that. But it's something I've searched for and not really found in the KKW forms curriculum.
     
  6. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2004
    Messages:
    3,412
    Likes Received:
    503
    Trophy Points:
    198
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    924
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    • Funny Funny x 2
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    21,911
    Likes Received:
    6,424
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    The monkeys in your head don't count, my friend.
     
  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    11,915
    Likes Received:
    2,076
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    You’ve got monkeys? Lucky bastard.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,208
    Likes Received:
    918
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I've only said anything about it because I haven't been exposed to the apparent kkw method.

    I had a bit of a chat with another student at my school though, and he attended a kkw school while on a work placement - there were no ITF schools near where he was.

    He actually echoed what you've been saying, which honestly I was surprised about.

    A totally different school to yours, separated by the Atlantic, and with the same lack of application based on poomse.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,208
    Likes Received:
    918
    Trophy Points:
    213
    It does seem heavily dependent on which TKD you do...
     
  12. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    924
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    And don't get me wrong - I do the forms. I'm up to something like 26 unarmed long forms at my school. I do train them, and I do follow the training method my Master lays out for me. Going forward with the idea that was said earlier, that the Tier 1 application is body mechanics, and not necessarily direct application. That the goal of forms is exercise and body control, not to teach application. If that is the case, then they are working fine, and I may have wasted the last 5 years of trying to figure out the direct application being taught.

    Moving forward, if I treat them as exercises instead of teachings, it will help. Because I'll be focused on the right things and not distracted by what they aren't.

    But everything I've read and seen suggests the KKW forms are not designed to teach application. Like I said, this is at multiple schools, from asking questions here, from researching articles, watching videos of the forms being demonstrated to the general public, watching videos of people getting critiqued and advised on the forms by the grandmaster.

    My conclusion, after all of this, is that the KKW forms are not designed to teach your mind, but your body.
     
  13. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,208
    Likes Received:
    918
    Trophy Points:
    213
    But there's no reason at all that you can't use your poomse to find the application though, the moves are in there...
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    924
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    This video (from a BJJ guy) is why I don't think that it's very useful to engage in this type of training without guidance:



    I mean, I can do it, sure. But as far as bunkai goes, I'm a white belt. Just like I'd be a white belt in Judo or BJJ, just like I'd be a beginner at boxing or Muay Thai. I have skills that translate (just like Chewie had skills that translated from wrestling to BJJ), but I'd also be going off of assumptions and biases, with no guidance or examples to follow.

    Just like when Daniel was trying to learn Karate from a book, and he had to find an actual teacher because he got his butt handed to him.
     
  15. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,208
    Likes Received:
    918
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I was using 'you' as in your organisation really.

    But even so, you do the moves, you know the moves, why can't you make them fit?
     
  16. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    924
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    You told me that the basic forms and exercises have prescribed partner drills, but at higher belts you make your own drills based on the form. I'm assuming you also get advised on what you draw from them, i.e. better ways or different ways to apply it. That's been a part of your training is how to draw the application from the form.

    When it comes to that type of training, I'm not even a white belt. I'm uninitiated. Would you scoff at someone who has taken 10 years of boxing because he doesn't know how to roundhouse kick?
     
  17. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    575
    Likes Received:
    446
    Trophy Points:
    218
    I may be taking the advice in this video differently than others... But what I get from it, is to train with an expert in the area that you are interested in. When I looked for a Karate school, I did not want one that did no kata and I did not want one that did dance kata. I wanted a school that trained kata, the karate way and that understood what was in the kata.

    I agree with your premise that learning the bunkai, by yourself, without a teacher that understood the bunkai is like training bjj in your basement, from books. Thats specifically why I looked for an instructor that both knew the bunkai and deeper meanings of the kata and also taught those things to his students. When I found instructors that either did not know it or did not show it... I kept looking. As Chewie pointed out... find an expert in what you want to learn, and train with him.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    220
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Austin, Texas, USA
    If your training is primarily based on poomsae, lack of application training might be a problem. If poomsae isn’t the basis of your training, I’d say it’s only a problem if you make it a problem.

    Personally, I’m not concerned with finding combat ready applications for every movement I come across in a poomsae. There’s plenty to learn and practice without that. I certainly don’t feel the need to come up with several different applications for the same movement. I’d rather just name the other applications for what they are doing and not worry about it. Are the MMA guys sitting around reverse engineering a punching motion to find other ways to use that movement?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
  19. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    924
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    I haven't looked at the schools lately, but I don't think there's much in the way of karate as close to me as this school is.

    Even if there was, I honestly probably wouldn't go. As much as I wish that we did draw applications from our forms, I get a lot of application out of everything else at the school. I attack the improvisation from a different angle based on Hapkido, and the way we use short forms there. Plus, this is a community that's basically become my family (including my family, as my parents are also black belts under me, and my nephew trained for about a year).

    This is just one area that's been a bit of a sore spot for me, and I'm learning to view our poomsae different so I know what to expect out of them. Just like you have to realize when lend Jerry $20, you're probably never gonna see it again, but you love him anyway because he's your cousin.
     
  20. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,682
    Likes Received:
    924
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    There is more to our training, it's just not derived from the poomsae. I also have to agree with you about the MMA guys.

    What do you do with the techniques you don't have an application for?
     

Share This Page