Juko-Kai Ninjutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Cryozombie, Feb 15, 2003.

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  1. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    So whats the latest word on this issue?

    I do take issue with something, if Saks honourary 10th dan is just nothing.

    Why does Hatsumi Sensei advert all the 3 billion honourary belts and certs he has?
    My old Shidoshi told me that Hatsumi has black belts in almost every Japanese art as well. Is this misinformation. This was while training in the Bujinkan.
     
  2. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    I dont know SPECIFICALLY which ones he (Sensei Hatsumi) has... but I feel that its one thing to claim to have an Honorary Rank in (Insert art here)

    Its another thing to claim to have a Rank in (insert art here) AND to claim to teach that art, when you have no formal training in it and only an honorary rank.

    If my understanding of what I read on the Juko-kai website was true, they were TEACHING a Ninjutsu class under that Honorary rank...

    Thats what I see as the difference between Hatsumi Sensei and Mr. Sacharnoski.

    Dunno. :idunno:
     
  3. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    OK I did know about the Judan being honourary. My point is that while I have had Kan Shidoshi make big happy about all the recognition Hatsumi has and everyone downplays Saks 10th. Personally I don't give a crap, I think it was a poor move considering the amount of issues that is surrounding him.
    I do know that Sak has or had a 4th dan, which under the "guidance" of a Shidoshi he can teach and issue certain rank. Of which he was right? I just wanted to know if that still exists. I would be assured that Wilson Sensei, who is the benchmark of rank in Canada would see to it that a serious assosiation of his would continue in the path that the brotherhood set out (brotherhood being Wilsons org)

    Again I was just asking, and well it doesn't affect me at all. Unless Don figures I am going to try and get a grade from someone else.

    Do you think Rod would grade me too? :uhyeah:
     
  4. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I used to think that he had a fourth dan too based on a letter I got from Kent Bergstrom. But in this post Jeffrey Wilson says,
    Of course, most things that they say are suspect. But I guess we can assume that he is only a second dan. And no, that rank does not go away, only the honorary one.

    But I am sure that there will be a Jukokai-ryu ninjutsu formed in the near future based on Rod's "extensive training over the decades in ninjutsu." Anyone want to bet against me? %-}
     
  5. Bujingodai

    Bujingodai Brown Belt

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    No can't say I'd wager against that one.
     
  6. Jeff Boler

    Jeff Boler Blue Belt

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    He's grading in it already. He recently announced that he had graded several Juko Kai members as Shodans. (One who claims lineage to a Koga Ryu style as well)

    As for the possibility of him creating a Ninpo division (his own), you can almost count on it. If you read the current "historical" information that is on his site, he now claims to have created his own style of Dai-Yoshin Ryu, after years of telling people that he actually inherited it, and even submitted that statement in court documents. You can expect the same with Ninpo, if it comes to that.

    The question is, what will Hatsumi do when this last court case is finalized? Remember....he already lost the case once. Now, he's trying to have the judgement vacated. However, I heard yesterday that he's actually trying to have the case settled. What happens then? I always view "settlements" as admissions of guilt, while saving your ***.
     
  7. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    In my opinion….
    On the subject or ranking being revoked.
    It would be very strange to revoke a person’s ranking in a system of martial arts.
    The system would have to have some type of agreement before the student received the ranking to be able to revoke the license.
    If not then it is foolish to believe the ranking can be just taken away without the agreement.
    Of course this person could be asked to leave the organization, if they were a member in the first place.
    I have spoken with and done a demo for the jukokai here in Dallas in 1992 at SMU. They were a very good group of people.
    After the demo Mr Ron sent a letter to Hatsumi sensei in Japan about my efforts.
    Hatsumi sensei replied with good feelings during our conversations about Mr Ron.
    I have a copy of the letter in my files if I remember correctly.
    The question would be if Mr Ron is license by Hatsumi sensei with any ranking.
    If so it should be between Mr Ron and Hatsumi sensei. Not a forum or group of teachers to speak of him poorly because of skills or knowledge of the license Hatsumi sensei has given him. Honorary or not.
    These are not becoming efforts of a warrior to create lies, ill feelings or gossip towards a human being.

    If you feel poorly about a license then why not take it up face to face with Mr Ron? Honor my friends.

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
  8. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Wow Ralph, even for you that was a rather bizzarre post.

    Who is "mr Ron"? I thought you were talking about Rod S and just made a typo on his name, but you used "ron" instead of "Rod" every time. You don't know the proper name of a person you are so close to?

    And, if you take the time to try to comprehend what is going on, you will see that it is not the rank that John Wilson gave Rod that is being revoked, the honorary rank that Hatsumi gave Rod is being revoked. And I already discussed how real rank is never revoked but honorary rank is.

    And then there is the fact that Rod no longer has a shidoshikai membership, Hatsumi refused to renew it. If you do not have a shidoshikai liscense you don't havve permision to teach Bujinkan. Many people have tried to say otherwise, but if you ask Hatsumi he will back this up.

    So you are friends with Rod? Can't say I am surprised that two guys of your shared charecter would look out for each other. In just about every respect, trustworthiness, skills, way of treating people, you and Rod strike me as about the same. I am sure there are many people looking at you guys ina new light based on what you ahve revealed here.
     
  9. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    Who is "mr Ron"?
    Donny, we are writing about the same person.. I rather use Ron. Any problems with that? I don't think so....
    In regards to the ranking being revoked.. I rather see it written in Hatsumi sensei handwriting before spreading rumors. You have proven not to be trustworthy or very honorable.
    Not that it any of your business.
    I am a not friend with Ron.
    I did a demo for him.
    Please don’t twist my post Donny, your agendas don't go with my humor very well.

    Better luck next time Donny.

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
  10. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    The problem is, his name isn't Ron...

    And of course, you are not going to be able to point anyone in a direction where they can see how I am supposably not honorable for themselves. You are just going to try to bait me by calling me "Donny" and such.

    I am sure that the people whose opinions I care about will take my word and Kreth's and not yours.
     
  11. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    Donny,
    Fortunately your reputation with agendas follow you where ever you go.

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
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  12. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Nice, typical attack while ducking the responsibility of providing proof.

    But what type of attack are you going ot make against Jeff Velten (Kreth) in order to provide cover for Rod S? He is the one who originally made the announcement here. What is his motivation for lying? For that matter, what is mine?
     
  13. Jeff Boler

    Jeff Boler Blue Belt

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    It would be strange? I have always required students to sign off on a "code of conduct." If any of the rules in this "code" are violated, then they will lose their ranks, titles, etc., depending on the severity of the violation. Regardless, Sacharnoski holds an "Honorary" 10th Dan. It would be very silly to revoke someones "honorary" rank. I believe Hatsumi refused to sign off on his Shidoshikai license, pending the outcome of the court cases Sacharnoski is involved in. (Both of which, have really already been determined.) Very smart move on Hatsumi's part.

    Yes, and they always appear to be a "nice, christian" group of individuals. Until you dig a bit further. Sacharnoski depends on their "brotherhood" to maintain his "status." Anyone who can read can easily see how Sacharonski has twisted the truth to make him appear to be "better." If I remember correctly, it was Kent Bergstrom who used to have the signature that stated, "Right or Wrong, I stand behind my sensei." That should tell you two things. Number one, Bergstrom at least admitted to the possibility that Sacharnoski has in fact lied, and number two, Bergstrom doesn't care, and stands behind the misdeeds anyway. That's the way Jukokai works.

    Sacharnoski does this alot, in an attempt to further bolster his recognitions and claims. Look at the Hontai Yoshin Ryu situation. He spent time over there, doing demonstrations and such, and then when he got back home, he requested the approval to "represent" the arts in the US.

    So, informing the general public about Sacharnoski's mis-deeds is not "becoming of a warrior", but lying about your past, lineages, recognitions, etc., is ok by your standards? Sacharnoski has repeatadly, and continues, to lie about his history, ranks, associations, etc., all in an attempt to further bolster his self-proclaimed title of " West’s highest graded, non-Asian martial arts master".

    Ahhh....I was expecting this. This is another tactic that Jukokai-ites like to use. "If you have a problem with me, tell me to my face." It's no longer necessary Ralph. It's been done through the court system.

    I must say that I am quite surprised by your backing of this individual. I know your viewpoints don't always jive with those of your Bujinkan comrades (which in alot of cases, is good). However, I never expect to see you back and support such a fraud. Just a question, this demonstration that you did for Rod. Were you paid for it?
     
  14. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    Gentelmen please get on with the disscussion and stop the attacks on each other
    I might be able to learn something of your arts if you would disscuss them a little more than you do personalities
     
  15. Jeff Boler

    Jeff Boler Blue Belt

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    Please do not view my post as an "attack" on Ralph. I would simply like him to clarify his statements, and what appears to be his public support of Mr. Sacharnoski, nothing more.
     
  16. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    I must say that I am quite surprised by your backing of this individual. Just a question, this demonstration that you did for Rod. Were you paid for it?

    Jeff, I no time have I supported Ron.
    I have supported honor - respect between people.
    His assumed illness or problems are not really what should be written about by others over the web or forum.
    Hear say of what Hatsumi sensei feels or thinks is unwholesome.
    It does NO ONE justice.
    Hatsumi seseni is wise and careful from my experiece around him.
    But as students of a martial way it is not our place to disrespect a fellow martial artist or human being for that matter.
    That's fourm paper dragon stuff.

    And no, I would never take monies for showing any skills during a demo to anyone.

    Thanks for the concern.. why not e-mail me personally if you have questions regarding my feelings next time..

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
  17. Jeff Boler

    Jeff Boler Blue Belt

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    Thanks for the response Ralph. I did not email you for answers, as your statements were made in a public forum. I do, however, appreciate your response.

    Hatsumi is very wise. However, I think that he was taken advantage of in this situation. By being located in Japan, it is quite easy for someone from Canada to approach him, and bolster the claims and reputation of someone from the US. Since Mr. Hatsumi does not visit the internet, nor does he spend a whole lot of time in America, it's quite easy to see why he would just take someone's word for Sacharnoski's standing. Hadhe been aware of the truth regarding the man before hand, I can't believe that he would have ever issues such an honorary rank in the first place.

    I disagree. Respect must be earned. That being said, I appreciate your reponses.
     
  18. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I have trouble understanding how you think that Jeff Velten and I passing along information about a guy who has abused Hatsumi's kindness getting his honorary rank removed is somehow not honorable, but
    posts like this by you somehow fills your description of "I have supported honor - respect between people." It is really kind of bizarre that you feel that we should shut up about this because it does not encourage respect, when the guy who you are defending does nothing to earn respect.

    I am used to the tactic of attacking the messenger of distressing news to a fraud. I stand by what I say and have heard here in Japan. The attacks on my charecter I have received from people like "Kamiyama" (snicker, snort) and the Juko-kai is nothing new to me. The fact remains that if you go ask Hatsumi he will back my version of events and not the ones Ralph Severe and the Juko-kai are trying to get people to believe. And of course, being unable to provide any fact, logic or proof, the most common tactic of people like Severe and the Juko-kai is to attack the person carrying the message.

    The fact remains, Rod S is no longer allowed to use the Bujinkan name to teach, but there has been no change in his web site. His honorary rank has been revoked.
     
  19. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    Thanks Donny...
    But the problem with what you state is I do not train in fantasy kobujutsu or have that mindset to understand your post.
    It is of course twisted and remains clouded with misconceptions and hearsay.

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
  20. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Damn if the above does not remind me of what Sharp Phil wrote when he penned the following.

    You can find the article at his site here.

    Of course, it does not explain how you can act like you did in the post I gave the link to, and yet say that passing along information I have heard in Japan is somehow not honorable. Care to try again? :uhyeah:123
     
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