Kihon Happo,San Shin No Kata

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Mon Mon, Feb 16, 2003.

  1. Mon Mon

    Mon Mon Guest

    What is the primary difference between the Kihon Happo and San shin no kata? Are they both equal in importance or is Kihon Happo more important. What dose San Shin No Kata teach you? How is it different than the Kihon Happo in what it teaches? And what dose Kihon Happo teach you that San Shin No Kata Dosen't?

    Thanks respectively:asian:
     
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  2. Lawman9

    Lawman9 Guest

    The San Shin No Kata are something you should be practicing everyday. They teach you the balance, distance, and timing needed to perform everything in the Kihon Happo. They are just as important.
     
  3. Shizen Shigoku

    Shizen Shigoku Purple Belt

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    Lawman9: "The San Shin No Kata are something you should be practicing everyday. They teach you the balance, distance, and timing needed to perform everything in the Kihon Happo. They are just as important."

    That summed it up quite nicely, I will elaborate just a little.

    Mon Mon: "What is the primary difference between the Kihon Happo and San shin no kata?"

    The kihon happo are the fundamental starting point forms for bujinkan taijutsu. They teach a variety of basic evasion, blocking (i.e. counter-striking / receiving methods), striking, grappling, and throwing maneuvers.

    The sanshin are more of a combination moving meditation / body integration set of movements. The sanshin are almost always practiced solo and teach the balance and coordination aspects of bujinkan taijutsu, as well as how to move naturally in a relaxed way to generate power. They also, to an extent, teach different strategies - chi: holding your ground; being direct, sui: receiving and flowing, ka: attacking forcefully, fu: evasion, ku: distraction; using combination attacks.

    As lawman stated, sanshin should be practiced everyday - it is something that you can do easily on your own at home, and getting better at doing sanshin helps you perform better at every other technique in the bujinkan.

    The kihon happo should also be practiced often, but not necessarily every day, or every training session. They must (in my opinion) be practiced in paired kata, so you can't really do them on your own. The kihon happo also contain more grappling than striking forms, while the sanshin only teaches striking methods.

    Practice both as often as you can along with plenty of ukemi skills and weapons-familiarity and you'll have everything you need to begin learning bujinkan taijutsu.
     
  4. r.severe

    r.severe Blue Belt

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    What is the primary difference between the Kihon Happo and San shin no kata?
    **ky, these are the beginning stages to Gyokko ryu koshijutsu after the students trains the atemi, kamae and ukemi of the ryu. There is a great deal of difference in these two stages of development in the students training.
    You can view these basic ideas on Hatsumi sensei Gyokko ryu DVD.**

    Are they both equal in importance or is Kihon Happo more important?
    **ky, The san shin no gata can be achieved by other means. But these were introduced to Hatsumi sensei by Takamatsu sensei as a base for his motion in the “zentai” principles that Hatsumi sensei was lacking at the time.
    They are more or less balanced and are not more important than the other in the stages of Gyokko ryu koshijutsu. Hatsumi sensei says these are the backbone or base of Japanese bujutsu. I couldn’t agree more. The forms of the san shin and kihon happo give a pathway to other forms than are more complex and combative in nature. These forms in my opinion, kihon happo, are also outdated and can be achieved others ways. One has to view these as they are and ponder the reason they were introduced to Hatsumi sensei at the time of HIS training with Takamatsu sensei.**

    What dose San Shin No Kata teach you?
    **ky, zentai mainly, the "putting" the parts together to go on to the next stage. The san shin no gata helps students learn sabaki, uke nagashi, with the feel of counter time with the full body.**

    How is it different than the Kihon Happo in what it teaches?
    **ky, The kihon happo also teaches zentai but also teaches distance and timing with correct body feel in a conflict. San shin is a very basic path to sabaki and body motion without combative ‘feeling’.
    You have to remember that san shin no gata is VERY BASIC in nature and the kihon is a great deal more advanced and has it’s different feel and reason for it.**

    And what dose Kihon Happo teach you that San Shin No Kata Dosen't?
    **ky, Combative nature.**

    ralph severe, kamiyama
     
  5. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    The san shin teaches you how to use your body. You learn things like how to transfer weight, use your knees, generate power, etc. You do them solo (mainly) to concentrate on how your body works.

    The Kihon Happo teaches you the basic strategies of using the above while dealing with someone else. You learn distancing in regards to where the other guy is, angles of the same, how to deal with other people's balance, etc.

    Learn the first without the second and you can't deal with another person. Learn the second without the first and you won't move as well or hit as powerfully as you could, etc..
     
  6. Mountain Kusa

    Mountain Kusa Orange Belt

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    The past has shown that if a person only trains on kihon,it will take them longer to develop. However, if a person trains in both sanshin and Kihon their movement will advance at a more rapid pace.

    With all this being said you have sanshin, Kihon, and Kata. Uhhummph, uh Chris what are you talking about? When you train with Sanshin and kihon and your body movement starts to develop, and then start working on Kata, your budo eyes will start to develop to see that all of them are composed of the same things. I have been working on Koto Ryu and found that the sanshin helps with the power to break bones. Other kata to flatten out a person. Or Move through a person.

    Kihon is like the relationship between a diver and a diving board. I hear at times a lot of argument of people saying that it is done like this, not like that. My oppinion is this, no matter how you were shown how to do the basic Kihon, as long as it follows the principle of that paticular technique, it is not wrong, it is simply henka or variation. What is important about the basic kihon is what you do with it once you leave the board.

    I had a teacher that finally clued me in to this several years ago by asking me how many ways can you do an omote gyakku? He showed me five in the space of 2 minutes and all were worse on me than the last. It has been about five years since that point and I find more at various times during the year.

    Sanshin teaches so many things, timing, distance, balance, power, offline, etc.etc.etc. Sanshin enhances kihon and kata, sanshin and kihon together make up kata, and the kata will help you find different ways to perform a kihon a different way. My .02 cents worth.
     
  7. Satt

    Satt Black Belt

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    I guess I better get that Sanshin video soon then!!! :)
     
  8. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    You better get a grip of sanshin first hand before you get that video.
     
  9. Satt

    Satt Black Belt

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    Well, I live in Hawaii where there are NO Bujinkan dojos. So I will just have to make due for the next 5 months until I move to Tennessee. I am sure Mountain Kusa will be able to help me out then though.
     
  10. Shizen Shigoku

    Shizen Shigoku Purple Belt

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  11. Satt

    Satt Black Belt

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    cool. thanks man.
     
  12. sanshinbetterlatethanever

    sanshinbetterlatethanever White Belt

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    (this is only 1 opinion, I am sure far more knowledgeable practitioners will have way more to say about this)
    I have been studying about 5 and a half years and am at a road block/crossroads in my training. After about a week of total frustation my current teacher tried once more to explain to me how EVERYTHING is from the San Shin. I think I finally get it. The most basic level of san shin is what you see, move out of the way counterstrike etc. But
    Practicing the San Shin is what makes EVERY technique work. Just in Chi no Kata, falling back and placing your hand at your hip. the timing of that is in so many kata where you need to move that way to take someone's balance and your hand needs to get to a certain place at the same time (timing) you hit your kamae. then Practicing your movement through the strike of chi no kata, its important to make sure your hips and shoulders are aligned TROUGHOUT the movement. and then making sure the hand and leg are coordinated with the final strike and your also have the right ALIGNMENT where the power of the kamae goes through your arm down through the bottom of your foot. this is all part of your "movement" in every kata. My teacher has been trying to explain this to me for 3 years. Its only now that I realize I have only focused on technique (kihon happo) and not San Shin (movement). The the movement of the san shin is necessary for the kihon happo to work.
    Its way deeper than I can explain. Hopefully someone else on here will further elaborate on this.
    All I want to do now is practice San Shin for at least the next 2 or 3 years.
     
  13. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Sounds like you have a good teacher. What he says, what you say, mirrors my experience and what I am told.

    Whenever I seem to have trouble, it seems mainly to come from my doing something contrary to the movements of the san shin. Sometimes it is a problem with angling or distance between me and the other person. But most of the time looking at what I do rather than the other guy solves the problem.

    Welcome to martialtalk. I hope you enjoy the experience.
     
  14. teisatsu

    teisatsu Yellow Belt

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    Hmmmm... Yes, it is my opinion as well that everything comes from the SanShin/GoGyo.

    Yes you learn very fundamental lessons (notice I didn't say "basic" lessons) there but when your eyes develop you will see that even the advanced concepts of maai, kuzushi, kukan, even zanshin, etc all intersect in the practice of the SanShin/GoGyo no Kata.

    In other words, study the five kata. They are "fundamental" to your development in this art.
     
  15. Senin

    Senin Yellow Belt

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  16. uke

    uke White Belt

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    If you want a copy I suggest you search the web, or try a search on lime wire or a file sharing program like it. There's lots of ninjutsu stuff out there. Some of it is garbage and some of it is good.

    Thanks,

    Uke123
     

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