Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[drop bear]

I would argue that the krotty guys, as you call them are not Karateka at all.... but karateka in name only.

Ancient okinawa saying: Karate is Kata, Kata is karate.
Before Kumite was a common practice.... everyone did Kata. KATA WAS Karate.

No one ever heard the old masters say
Kihon is Karate.
Or
Kumite is Karate.


5. “In the past, it was expected that about three years were required to learn a single kata, and usually even an expert of considerable skill would only know (specifically have mastered) three, or at most five, kata.” – Gichin Funakoshi

After Gitchen went to Japan... He told one of his students there were 15 forms and they could be learned in about 5 years, a year and a half if they were already a martial artist.

However,
The old masters used to keep a narrow field but plough a deep furrow.

Present day students have a broad field but only plough a shallow furrow." Genshin Hironishi says -- with what authority I don't know -- that Funakoshi's' karate practice involved the study of 100 kata, but that seems unlikely. When he settled in Japan he taught 15 kata, and by the standards of the day that was a fairly large number.

All the more remarkable because GF admitted to spending 10 years learning the three Nahanchi forms.

Ony if krotty is the stagnant reflection of hironishi. That will slowly devolve as a copy of a copy does rather than evolve into something better.

 

[TSDTexan]

BEAR-BABY. Thanks for answering so conclusively.

\
K-man, Rafa, where are you'se guys?


\
"They invest in conditioning fitness." I see the TKD practitioners in my back-fist fail vid, I see what you're saying. Sitting around, playing around, waking aimlessly around. Oh, I forgot, staring @ the ceiling. Not to mention the woman black-belt observing / watching "me" fail repeatedly in my backfist break.... wishing / hoping, no / praying I won't ask her out to dinner after class....
\
All top TKD performers, they are.....


\
Followers, not leaders.


\
Retirement like Ali,? NOT.

I guess Dropbear is unaware of the Uechi-ryu Sanchin and how doing this kata the Uechi way makes monsters of conditioning.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Mate you have no idea. People were their own sources. There were sources third party anecdotes evidence in locked bunkers across the world. The idea that they did not have to do my research for me. all sorts of cool stuff going on.

I had to do a whole thing on the celestial tea cup and everything..

The definition of evidence is much broader than what you personally accept or have seen with your own eyes in person or on video.

Does chi balls work?
Well it has been tested scientifically and has so far failed to.

But have we tried it on the street? Well no so therefore it must work.

Reductio absurdum:

Chi balls don't work therefore TMA's don't either.

In regards to testing an art the test has to be appropriate because inappropriate testing can be just as detrimental as not testing at all. Full contact competition fighting in a cage is not an appropriate test for everything. To test a competition style then competition is required. The test of a self defense style occurs when it is used in a real self defense situation.In either case you will not know for sure if or how well something will work in any given situation until you are in that situation

 

[RTKDCMB]

Making millions is pitiful compared to living in poverty?

What makes you think the Karate master is living in poverty and what percentage of MMA fighters earn millions?

 

[Hanzou]

What makes you think the Karate master is living in poverty and what percentage of MMA fighters earn millions?

A bonafide traditional karate master wrecking people in MMA would make millions. He would be a massive draw for the sport.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A bonafide traditional karate master wrecking people in MMA would make millions. He would be a massive draw for the sport.

To be honest a traditional karate "master" probably could care less about MMA. That person's life long desire was to master karate and not MMA. But if any MMA student feels that it's all crap then they are more than welcome to go to one of the "bonafide traditional karate" schools and call the master out for being a fraud. I can't guarantee the MMA guy would win or even survive, but that's the only way you'll see that type of fight. So far I haven't seen an MMA fighter do that. Probably because MMA fighters don't get hung up in this TMA is whack attitude that non-MMA fighters carry. I'm willing to bet that many MMA fighters actually train in a TMA still today.

 

[drop bear]

The definition of evidence is much broader than what you personally accept or have seen with your own eyes in person or on video.

It is not just tales from the street either.

 

[drop bear]

Reductio absurdum:

Chi balls don't work therefore TMA's don't either.

In regards to testing an art the test has to be appropriate because inappropriate testing can be just as detrimental as not testing at all. Full contact competition fighting in a cage is not an appropriate test for everything. To test a competition style then competition is required. The test of a self defense style occurs when it is used in a real self defense situation.In either case you will not know for sure if or how well something will work in any given situation until you are in that situation

I think that is an unreasonable yard stick. But we will explore the idea.

So how many fights does an instructor of self defence have to have before he can say he has a legitimate system?

A sport system you would either have to wina lot of fights or win consistantly against some good guys.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Frankly, I don't really care.

\
Not nice.

Er... What?

Gustafsson's base style is boxing, not Bjj. He also practiced shoot fighting. His Bjj training is fairly recent, and he is a purple belt.

Cormier is actually ranked higher in Bjj than Gustafsson is. Cormier has a brown belt, and that brown belt is complemented well by his stellar wrestling background.

\
T'anks for setting the record straight, I guess.
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It's a good forum with you here, thnx gawd.
\
Can't wait for more 'substance,' from Hanzou.

 

[ShotoNoob]

I would argue that the krotty guys, as you call them are not Karateka at all.... but karateka in name only.

Ancient okinawa saying: Karate is Kata, Kata is karate.
Before Kumite was a common practice.... everyone did Kata. KATA WAS Karate.

No one ever heard the old masters say
Kihon is Karate.
Or
Kumite is Karate.


5. “In the past, it was expected that about three years were required to learn a single kata, and usually even an expert of considerable skill would only know (specifically have mastered) three, or at most five, kata.” – Gichin Funakoshi

After Gitchen went to Japan... He told one of his students there were 15 forms and they could be learned in about 5 years, a year and a half if they were already a martial artist.

However,
The old masters used to keep a narrow field but plough a deep furrow.

Present day students have a broad field but only plough a shallow furrow." Genshin Hironishi says -- with what authority I don't know -- that Funakoshi's' karate practice involved the study of 100 kata, but that seems unlikely. When he settled in Japan he taught 15 kata, and by the standards of the day that was a fairly large number.

All the more remarkable because GF admitted to spending 10 years learning the three Nahanchi forms.

\
Yeah, I couldn't EVER image what the old Masters could know. I mean, Joe Rogan has EVOLVED.
\
Edit: Plus MMA has "evolved." Shake it out, Shake it out...

 

[ShotoNoob]

I guess Dropbear is unaware of the Uechi-ryu Sanchin and how doing this kata the Uechi way makes monsters of conditioning.

\
Yeah, that's a superb example. I always did tons of push ups, sit ups, running-in-place, etc.
\
And Hanzou was so busy being mean to me (aGAIN), he missed the one Black-Gi'd TKD Instructor's self-defense gambit against the woman TKD black-belt in "my" SHAKE-IT-OUT backfist break demo. NO comment Hanzou? Too busy memorizing MMA competitors' belt's in BJJ, whatever? Gotcha, Hanzou. Shake it out, bro.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So how many fights does an instructor of self defence have to have before he can say he has a legitimate system?

That is not the only criteria for a successful system.

 

[RTKDCMB]

A bonafide traditional karate master wrecking people in MMA would make millions.

How about a bonafide traditional karate instructor;

Instructors

A bonafide traditional karate master (or other TMA) can make loads of money running a successful nationwide school too. Do you think the head of the ATA or GKR is living in poverty?

 

[drop bear]

That is not the only criteria for a successful system.

The test of a self defence system is when it is used in self defence.

So what ten fights. Fifty?

 

[RTKDCMB]

The test of a self defence system is when it is used in self defence.

So what ten fights. Fifty?

Depends on if the number is for each individual or the combined population of those doing the self defense system and how conclusive you want the results to be. If a student of a self defense system is getting into fifty fights then he would be failing at using the self defense system.Then I guess the 30 or so single matches in the first 4 UFC's is enough for you to conclude that all traditional martial arts are inferior to combat sports.

 

[drop bear]

Depends on if the number is for each individual or the combined population of those doing the self defense system and how conclusive you want the results to be. If a student of a self defense system is getting into fifty fights then he would be failing at using the self defense system.Then I guess the 30 or so single matches in the first 4 UFC's is enough for you to conclude that all traditional martial arts are inferior to combat sports.

Well I would of course like to know that these self defence situations are not just made up. Let's say it would be reasonable if your system kept a log of self defence situations that could at least be verified in some way.

Do you have anything like that?

 

[drop bear]

.Then I guess the 30 or so single matches in the first 4 UFC's is enough for you to conclude that all traditional martial arts are inferior to combat sports.

Not sure where you pulled this from. Let's just leave this be for now.

 

[Hanzou]

How about a bonafide traditional karate instructor;

Instructors

A bonafide traditional karate master (or other TMA) can make loads of money running a successful nationwide school too. Do you think the head of the ATA or GKR is living in poverty?

Machida has too much non-Karate influence (he's also a black belt in Bjj).

Additionally he's past his prime.

 

[Hanzou]

To be honest a traditional karate "master" probably could care less about MMA. That person's life long desire was to master karate and not MMA. But if any MMA student feels that it's all crap then they are more than welcome to go to one of the "bonafide traditional karate" schools and call the master out for being a fraud. I can't guarantee the MMA guy would win or even survive, but that's the only way you'll see that type of fight. So far I haven't seen an MMA fighter do that. Probably because MMA fighters don't get hung up in this TMA is whack attitude that non-MMA fighters carry. I'm willing to bet that many MMA fighters actually train in a TMA still today.

Really? TMA guys used to be all about competitions. Some styles were even created from the founders victory in NHB combat. Ueshiba, Motobu, Yuanija, etc. were all about accepting challenges.

I wonder what changed......

 

[RTKDCMB]

Additionally he's past his prime.

So are most Karate masters.