Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[renc]

If you make a statement you have to prove it. So if it is a fact that there no Okinawan karate masters in nhb you have to show that which of course you can't do. Facts have sources.
(I know we have walked down the road to insane town before with this idea but that is the generally accepted way to go.)

Expecting the evidence to present itself then drawing strong conclusions with a bunch of hidden assumptions is the insanely risky road. A working scientist might agree.

 

[Hanzou]

If you make a statement you have to prove it. So if it is a fact that there no Okinawan karate masters in nhb you have to show that which of course you can't do. Facts have sources.
(I know we have walked down the road to insane town before with this idea but that is the generally accepted way to go.)

But what the issue is here is a case of terminology. What you should have said is there is no evidence of Okinawan karate masters performing in nhb or mma.

Which I would not have a clue either way.

But there are probably guys who do Okinawan karate who do mma. Is kyokkushin Okinawan? Cos then there are a few fairly decent guys running around.

Nope, Kyokushin is not Okinawan, it's Japanese.

And yeah, we tend to see Kyokushin guys pop up in MMA because fighting is such a big part of the style.

Otherwise I bet the Japanese Kudo team has some krotty guys as well. But regardless none of these guys are defined by methods like kata or demos and so on. The common element will generally be they train like fighters.

Yep.

 

[Hanzou]

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That's a valid point. Yet one that has been addressed before through other venues & forums. Your point, while valid, is not conclusive.
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For a counterpoint, the Gracie's stepped into MMA and soon gained an aura of invincibility. So BJJ became the new martial religion.
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Then came along some true MMA talent the likes of Matt Hughes. The Gracie style was flattened like a pancake with MMA striking & wrestling.

You're behind the times. Bjj guys continue to pop up in MMA and do fairly well.

May be the Okinawan's are busy training true to karate standards and don't desire the fairly pitiful risk / reward of an MMA career? A distinct possibility.

Making millions is pitiful compared to living in poverty?

 

[drop bear]

Expecting the evidence to present itself then drawing strong conclusions with a bunch of hidden assumptions is the insanely risky road. A working scientist might agree.

Mate you have no idea. People were their own sources. There were sources third party anecdotes evidence in locked bunkers across the world. The idea that they did not have to do my research for me. all sorts of cool stuff going on.

I had to do a whole thing on the celestial tea cup and everything..

 

[renc]

Mate you have no idea. People were their own sources. There were sources third party anecdotes evidence in locked bunkers across the world. The idea that they did not have to do my research for me. all sorts of cool stuff going on.

I had to do a whole thing on the celestial tea cup and everything..

Russell put it that the rational view is agnostic - even if the practical impact is negligible. You can find good TMA schools and decide if there's anything worth learning. Or you can wait for someone to come to your club. Either way is ok. Neither way is an exhaustive search. The problem is people in their ponds claiming they've got the whole ocean wrapped up. Even MMA is a pond. Most of us live happily in our ponds. That's ok too.

I am my own source. I don't think any better can be reasonably claimed from the current state of knowledge. Claims about 'effectiveness' of techniques / training methods / systems are statistical and there is nothing *remotely* close to passing for a valid statistical study. Starting with a consistent, measurable definition of 'effective'. Instead there is illogic, rhetoric and hubris under the banner of science. This is bad for communication, bad for martial arts, regardless of whose art is more effective blah blah blah.

I've trained Sanda for 'many' years. Some individuals who've trained forms for 'many' years have rolled me over with consummate ease in gloves off nhb sparring, some of those same have done similar in self defence. They've got no interest in entering an MMA competition and nothing to prove by doing so. Put gloves on them and spar Sanda rules with me and their dominance vanishes. That's my experience. I know that the 'traditional' arts we train can be applied effectively and that I can apply them effectively against some individuals. I also know that context matters. I don't know if I could apply other arts *more* effectively given the same amount and quality of training. My plate is full at the moment with enough to learn - good enough for me. But then I'm not claiming my art / training methods to be more effective than others.

 

[Steve]

Hyperbole, ridicule and stereotype. Rhetorical devices, not good communication. Not scientific nor productive.

Here's the root of this entire thread. It's not what Joe Rogan said. It's how he said it.

 

[TSDTexan]

Perhaps somethings... already have been proven amongst themselves and have no need to prove themselves to others.

 

[TSDTexan]

Found this for you hanzou

 

[ShotoNoob]

And you probably won't. It's all talk, people say a lot of things. I have had a few people criticizing me over the years when they heard I study a martial art, saying things like they would easily take me or that if they did this I would have no way to stop them but not one of them, ever, has tried to test their 'theory' because it's all talk.

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Don't worry RTKDCMB. They have to go through the TKD black-belt in my board break-fail video 1st!
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Backfist, no; but he's still got that 'wicked' hopity spin wheel kick.
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Edit: Shake it out, shake it out.

 

[ShotoNoob]

BEAR-BABY. Thanks for answering so conclusively.

Well that seems the trend for successful fighters. There is no evidence that suggests that kata has been the defining actor in the majority of fighters. I don't even know of a minority of fighters that use kata soley or even as the bulkof their traning. It. Tends to be used as a supplemental training.

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K-man, Rafa, where are you'se guys?

Arts like Kudo,like kyokkushin, like sanda and any other art that could actually show a proven result,spar. They spar hard and with good people. They invest in conditioning and fitness. And they are evoking martial artists.

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"They invest in conditioning fitness." I see the TKD practitioners in my back-fist fail vid, I see what you're saying. Sitting around, playing around, waking aimlessly around. Oh, I forgot, staring @ the ceiling. Not to mention the woman black-belt observing / watching "me" fail repeatedly in my backfist break.... wishing / hoping, no / praying I won't ask her out to dinner after class....
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All top TKD performers, they are.....

These trends have been repeated club to club,system to system.

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Followers, not leaders.

So they avoid competition because they dont want to risk loosing and therefore loosing their standings as martial artists.

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Retirement like Ali,? NOT.

 

[ShotoNoob]

You're behind the times. Bjj guys continue to pop up in MMA and do fairly well.

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Hanzou, what do you think I'm doing on this forum????????????????????
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Not a one of the TMA schools, their legacy from all over the world - was ever able to help me (see TKD back fist FAIL vid). 'Til I came here & met you.
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Making millions is pitiful compared to living in poverty?

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Thanks, Hanzou. I never knew why that TUF house was so easy to fill. And heck, where are all those TUF house guys, where are they now?
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EDIT: How'd Gustafsson's BJJ do against Comier? Fairly well is right. Since you're so handy, why not cancel the plane flight to OKY-land & re-charter a trip out to Gus following his 2nd title fight loss. Gus & his much-vaunted BJJ need you badly.

 

[TSDTexan]

Nope, Kyokushin is not Okinawan, it's Japanese.

And yeah, we tend to see Kyokushin guys pop up in MMA because fighting is such a big part of the style.



Yep.

Your distinction is a bit off. Re k.k. being Japanese.

It appears that:
Kyokushin is rooted in Funikoshi's okinawan (Itosu taught Shuri-te), and Miyagi's okinawan gojo karates(Naha-te). Also, It wasnt founded by a Japanese individual but a Korean.

Goshin-jutsu, the specific self-defense techniques of the style draw much of their techniques and tactics from Mas Oyama's study of Daitō-ryū Aiki-jūjutsu. But you will be hard pressed to find a school that is not sport oriented that still teaches his self defense curriculum.

I don't think Mas Oyama would have bothered with learning drajj or teaching it as his self defense curriculum, if he felt it didn't actually have validity in a real life fight.

With this curriculum heading to extinction it loses any real Japanese-ness and becomes very Oki.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here's the root of this entire thread. It's not what Joe Rogan said. It's how he said it.

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I knew you were going to say that.

 

[TSDTexan]

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I knew you were going to say that.

Meee ttttoooooo

 

[Steve]

Simple truths are easy to predict, guys. Frankly, I'm surprised you aren't saying it.

 

[Hanzou]

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Hanzou, what do you think I'm doing on this forum????????????????????

Frankly, I don't really care.

How'd Gustafsson's BJJ do against Comier? Fairly well is right. Since you're so handy, why not cancel the plane flight to OKY-land & re-charter a trip out to Gus following his 2nd title fight loss. Gus & his much-vaunted BJJ need you badly.

Er... What?

Gustafsson's base style is boxing, not Bjj. He also practiced shoot fighting. His Bjj training is fairly recent, and he is a purple belt.

Cormier is actually ranked higher in Bjj than Gustafsson is. Cormier has a brown belt, and that brown belt is complemented well by his stellar wrestling background.

 

[drop bear]

Russell put it that the rational view is agnostic - even if the practical impact is negligible. You can find good TMA schools and decide if there's anything worth learning. Or you can wait for someone to come to your club. Either way is ok. Neither way is an exhaustive search. The problem is people in their ponds claiming they've got the whole ocean wrapped up. Even MMA is a pond. Most of us live happily in our ponds. That's ok too.

I am my own source. I don't think any better can be reasonably claimed from the current state of knowledge. Claims about 'effectiveness' of techniques / training methods / systems are statistical and there is nothing *remotely* close to passing for a valid statistical study. Starting with a consistent, measurable definition of 'effective'. Instead there is illogic, rhetoric and hubris under the banner of science. This is bad for communication, bad for martial arts, regardless of whose art is more effective blah blah blah.

I've trained Sanda for 'many' years. Some individuals who've trained forms for 'many' years have rolled me over with consummate ease in gloves off nhb sparring, some of those same have done similar in self defence. They've got no interest in entering an MMA competition and nothing to prove by doing so. Put gloves on them and spar Sanda rules with me and their dominance vanishes. That's my experience. I know that the 'traditional' arts we train can be applied effectively and that I can apply them effectively against some individuals. I also know that context matters. I don't know if I could apply other arts *more* effectively given the same amount and quality of training. My plate is full at the moment with enough to learn - good enough for me. But then I'm not claiming my art / training methods to be more effective than others.

Yeah but you are not making the weird logic jump though. Where you validate your untested methods with stories about street or lineage or that sort of junk. And that is where it goes.

Ok Mma(or whatever but let's keep is simple) as a test of effectiveness is not an exhaustive test. But that does not validate no testing or conclusions based on dogma. What it does is test under a certain set of conditions. When you spar your kata friends it is a test under a certain set of conditions.

Eventually you start to build a trend. There is absolutely enough information for statistical analysis. Especially the amount of information we are getting at the moment.

Now mma is not tested on the street.(well again there is quite a bit of data. But we just pretend there isn't) this does not make the link that therefore krav (just keeping it simple) does work on the street. Even if we say IDF or something or train in camouflage pants.

Does chi balls work?
Well it has been tested scientifically and has so far failed to.

But have we tried it on the street? Well no so therefore it must work.

 

[drop bear]

The problem is people in their ponds claiming they've got the whole ocean wrapped up. Even MMA is a pond. Most of us live happily in our ponds. That's ok too.

Except mma is not a pond. It is a river. It draws from other martial arts and feeds back into them. When it ceases to do that then you will have your issue.

Any system can do mma at any level using their own system using a combination or using mma. I mean we are starting to see medievil sword fighting in mma now.

This is why we can both do sanda against a guy who only trains in forms and see what happens.

 

[TSDTexan]

But there are probably guys who do Okinawan karate who do mma. Is kyokkushin Okinawan? Cos then there are a few fairly decent guys running around.

Otherwise I bet the Japanese Kudo team has some krotty guys as well. But regardless none of these guys are defined by methods like kata or demos and so on. The common element will generally be they train like fighters.

I would argue that the krotty guys, as you call them are not Karateka at all.... but karateka in name only.

Ancient okinawa saying: Karate is Kata, Kata is karate.
Before Kumite was a common practice.... everyone did Kata. KATA WAS Karate.

No one ever heard the old masters say
Kihon is Karate.
Or
Kumite is Karate.


5. “In the past, it was expected that about three years were required to learn a single kata, and usually even an expert of considerable skill would only know (specifically have mastered) three, or at most five, kata.” – Gichin Funakoshi

After Gitchen went to Japan... He told one of his students there were 15 forms and they could be learned in about 5 years, a year and a half if they were already a martial artist.

However,
The old masters used to keep a narrow field but plough a deep furrow.

Present day students have a broad field but only plough a shallow furrow." Genshin Hironishi says -- with what authority I don't know -- that Funakoshi's' karate practice involved the study of 100 kata, but that seems unlikely. When he settled in Japan he taught 15 kata, and by the standards of the day that was a fairly large number.

All the more remarkable because GF admitted to spending 10 years learning the three Nahanchi forms.

 

[drop bear]

Here's the root of this entire thread. It's not what Joe Rogan said. It's how he said it.

Well yeah but media. What do people expect.