JKD without Wing Chun?

Discussion in 'JKD / Jeet Kune Do' started by Thunder Foot, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. pinklady6000

    pinklady6000 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2016
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Just think how good Bruce Lee would be if he did five years of kickboxing, (like I did) from the age of 13, instead of that classical martial art wing chun. His advancement into JKD would of being much faster. Not only did he realize whing chun held him back but the pride of being chinese. Once he got over them hurdles he could explore the superior westen boxing, fencing and free style wrestling.
     
  2. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Odd really since Wing Chun is the foundation of Jeet Kun Do we can never really know what would have happened. As someone who is actually a Master of JKD once said "with out IP Man there wouldn't have been a Bruce Lee. Without Bruce Lee there never would have been a Jeet Kun Do."

    He never "got over" WC. He saw its limits (which all martial arts have) and then studied others to fill in the gaps.
     
  3. wingchun100

    wingchun100 Senior Master

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2013
    Messages:
    3,065
    Likes Received:
    467
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Troy NY
    No one will ever know what would have happened if Bruce had stayed in China and learned ALL of wing chun. I have heard that when he went back over there while making movies, he asked if he could learn more. His knowledge of the system was incomplete.
     
  4. Mou Meng Gung Fu

    Mou Meng Gung Fu Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Yes, someone can indeed learn JKD without learning WCK, because they are different arts. If you practice JKD, however, you will find some theories/notions and trapping/sensitivity drills that originated from WCK and without those theories/notions and trapping/sensitivity drills, I don't think you can really call it Bruce Lee's JKD.
     
  5. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    L.A., CA
    Actually Wingchun100, there are several sources who state that Bruce completed his WC training in Seattle, under the tutelage Fook Yeung in Hei Ban Wing Chun.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    213
    P
    Please document said sources because the actual ones that have been verified, to my knowledge, say he had started learning CK, moved to the US and that was it.

    Claims<verifiable information.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Mou Meng Gung Fu

    Mou Meng Gung Fu Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Bai Jong or Bi-jong is what Bruce Lee refered to as the "small phasic bent-knee stance" or JKD "on-guard position," from what I understand. It combines elements from Wing Chun, Western Boxing and Western Fencing if you want to get technical. The strong-side forward comes from fencing. JKD's lead jab comes from fencing. The spring-leg forward posture and raised rear heel comes from boxing. The elbows in and centerline focus comes from wingchun. It is actually obvious just by looking at Bai Jong from both a front and side view. The very concept of "intercepting" (Jeet) comes from fencing elements in Jeet Kune Do, and all stances are transitional in Bruce Lee's eyes. Sometimes he did stand in more of a sideways fencing stance, but that was transitional as well, and even then we see Bruce Lee's guard. He never strays from the centerline, and he always sinks his body in like a wingchun master. And I heard on a documentary once (I think it was Bruce Lee: A Warrior's Journey) that Bruce Lee was the youngest Wing Chun master to emerge from Grandmaster Yip Man's school. This documentary had Linda Lee Cadwell, Dan Inosanto, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and many other credible JKD experts giving interviews. It seemed quite legit to me, seeing as Bruce Lee started teaching Wing Chun to students in Seattle in 1959, as soon as he came to the states. This would've been too early for him to have mastered Wing Chun under Fook Yeung, but that doesn't mean he wasn't Fook Yeung's student (in Hung Suen Wing Chun) in 1959, the same time he was Shiu Han Sang's student (in Jeet Kune). His fencing and boxing experience came not just from books and videos either. He learned Epee Fencing from his brother Peter Lee in Hong Kong, which is where he also learned Western Boxing from a guy named Brother Edward between 1957-1958, so all of these different experiences molded Bruce Lee in his invention and development of Jeet Kune Do and it's unique Bai Jong fighting man stance. Hope this helps. Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not an expert on JKD.
     
  8. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    213

    Could one not also argue that the "intercepting" bit also comes from Wing Chun? At least how I have been taught one of the reasons for how we strike is because the strike can, almost incidentally, become a defense because the centerline concept will inevitably result, at times, with your attacks naturally intercepting the attacks of the opponent. I can't tell you how many times in sparing how I simply opened my hand while punching and it becomes a pak sau or when my strike "just" becomes a tan.

    My first martial art was foil fencing and I was always impressed with the similarities, it first clicked for me when I did a huen after covering. I thought "riposte!!!!!"
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Mou Meng Gung Fu

    Mou Meng Gung Fu Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Indeed actually, I think someone could argue that the concept of interception is not limited only to a single art. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    L.A., CA
    The name of who he trained under in the US; Fook Yeung. You can verify his relationship with the Lee's, that he was a Hei Ban sifu, and that he taught Bruce.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
  11. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,091
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Two things. 1. Bruce never attributed that training (some who insist he did refer to this as a "dick move on his part). 2. No one can really be sure what he learned there because Fook not only taught Red Boat but other styles as well so it is more than possible Bruce studied under him to learn other things, after all WSL himself said that all the fighting stuff is in SLT and CK. Bruce being the practical guy he was may have said "no need to formally study more, time to add."

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
     
  12. Mou Meng Gung Fu

    Mou Meng Gung Fu Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2017
    Messages:
    340
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    Okay... :)

    While digging through my shed, I found one of my old training journals. As I opened the cover, I skimmed through my old notebook and found a yellow dusty header page with my own cursive handwriting on it which says "B. Lee's training" at the top, followed by a short timeline I must've written back in 2005? (there's no date on it). Anyways, apparently I took an interest in this topic at one point in time. Here is what I wrote.

    B. Lee's training:
    1947-1952 Lee Hoi Cheun (wu taichi)
    1953-1958 Yip Gei Man (wingchun)
    1957-1958 Brother Edward (boxing)
    ????-???? Peter Lee (epee fencing)
    1959 Wong Shun Leung (wingchun)
    1959 Fook Yeung (redboat wingchun)
    1959 Gin Foon Mark (tonglong, fujow, yingjow, dimmak, paihochuan)
    1959 Shiu Han Sang (jeetkuen, bungbo, gunglik, hung ga)
    1961 Fook Yeung (sil lum kuen)
    1962 James Yimm Lee (sil lum kuen)
    1962 Allen Joe (sil lum kuen)
    1962 Wally Jay (jujutsu)

    Then at the bottom of the page is a footnote which says that in 1960, a maturing Bruce Lee "read books and studied Hsing-i, Pakua, Chin-na, Choy Lee Fut and Yang style Taichi," with little sidenotes off to the edge of the page which says that Bruce Lee also learned "Filipino style nunchaku from Danny Inosanto" and "Bruce learned a couple of Tang Soo Do kicks from Chuck Norris" and "Wrestling and Judo with Gene LeBell" and "Taekwondo kicks from Jhoon Rhee" is what I have written. Sijo Bruce Lee told Guru Dan Inosanto that he didn't care for FMA too much.

    Sifu Lamar Davis Jr. told me back in the early-2000's era that Jun Fan Gung Fu (JFGF) was 85% wing chun and 15% other. He told me that Jeet Kune Do (JKD) was 60% wingchun, 15% boxing, 15% fencing and 10% other. JKD's kicking comes from northern Shaolin, taekwondo, Shotokan karate, and French savatte. Guru Dan Inosanto marked down that JKD was madeup of about 50% wingchun, 30% fencing and 20% boxing. My journal then goes on to talk about Bruce Lee's Los Angeles school, students and system. This is "ALL" the training Bruce Lee ever received, the styles, his teachers and the years given according to my journal. Hope this info helps.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  13. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Actually Mou Meng, Bai Jong is just ready/guard position. If you look at the book that Bruce actually wrote (Tao of Gung Fu, not the Tao of JKD), you will see his Bai Jong was Maan Sao Wu Sao. He later changed it in his later unfinished writings to better suit his style. But the term Bai Jong is not specific to JKD, nor is it a direct reference to the current popular JKD guard position; it's just a generic term.

    Also, Jeet Kuen (intercepting fist) is a beginner Wing Tsun concept, one that is taught almost immediately upon beginning training.

    As good as he was, Bruce was no "master" (or the youngest) when he left Yip Man's school to come to America; he was only a Chum Kiu level student and knew the first few moves of the dummy form. He hadn't even gotten to the really good high level stuff yet (Biu Tze).
     
  14. FighterTwister

    FighterTwister Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Well you can, but to have understood the root of JKD, Wing Chun would be necessary to know the fundamentals of inside trapping terms and techniques and have mastered the base of JKD.

    However a good recognized JKD Institute will provide what is needed also in learning the base of Wing Chun.

    So what am I saying that it all depends on what you want to achieve in the time you want to achieve it and the costs of the journey.

    An example you want to learn how to make a Chocolate Cake should I take up a Culinary course and study for 4 years or should I find the recipe on how to make one.

    Wing Chun will take 5 years lets say to learn how most teach it and in JKD you should grasp the idea within a few months.

    Watch...................

    JKD





    WING CHUN



    Both are good to learn but there is always a cost - "TIME"

    That is in my opinion and my experience only, sure others will have their own and reasons that differ to mine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  15. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    FighterTwister, I've trained with the guys in the top video. Great group of guys, very humble and dedicated, but the application of most of their drills is lost in translation. Sifu Singh (in the top video) actually has real Wing Chun experience (along with Tai Chi, BJJ, and some other things), and is a student of Paul Vunak, so while he is able to execute his JKD with with the proper Wing Chun engine, I have found from experience that this skill is not picked up very well by his students, and even less so by his grand students. I'm not saying they are no good, don't get me wrong... but what I am saying is the Wing Chun just isn't there... and when they say/think they are using Wing Chun in their application, they generally are not, or are doing it terribly wrong, and I find it very easy to exploit the holes left open.

    With that said, it might be worth the time to gain a proper foundation. Without the basics, you're just building castles in the sand.
     
  16. FighterTwister

    FighterTwister Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Hi m8,

    Yes I understand, although you are not saying anything different than what I said though in above statement.

    Although as a practitioner myself of both and mastered in one JKD, where one is classical in form and the other is freestyle and aggressive in a practical sense where not every move is so refined like in Wing Chun its not efficient enough in my opinion.

    Imagine Wing Chun against a Boxer or someone just crazy swinging like mad, its not going to work so a free style approach knowing angles based on Wing Chun form with modern application works best in real fights.

    Because in a real street fight you are looking for angles and entry points usually down the center line first and to a side and you need fast burst of foot work and springy action in and out etc. Its why JKD is a beast in this way as you take the path even down to the ground.

    Sure there are similarities but where one varies over another is the approach and body mechanics to efficiently apply or a progressive art form expressed.

    Thats the keyword you are only good enough in the way you express it or understand it, how people interpret movement or even read a fight.

    On a Mook Jong they may look the same but in a real fight one is freestyle the other classical that's fact and undeniable.

    This conversation only gets more complex and difficult without experiencing it first in a class session and in a real street fight defensively.

    Then you begin to see how it all fits and what works and what doesn't.

    Both have great art form qualities but one is more useful in my experience.

    Or both have great points that can be used in reality but with Wing Chun it just lacks the suitable requirements.

    To use a metaphor - Its like you wouldn't Breakdance with a Tango master, it doesn't fit.

    Have you read and studied the Tao of Jeet Kune Do?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  17. Bino TWT

    Bino TWT Green Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Well, I do understand where you're coming from, but we have to totally different approaches to Wing Chun, or in my case Wing Tsun. If you can't make it work against a boxer, drunk meth head biker, or whatever... what's the point of doing it in the first place?

    It's not that Wing Tsun lacks anything, it's that it either isn't being transmitted properly to the students, the training isn't realistic, the student doesn't have an understanding of the material, or all of the above.

    I say this from personal experience, an instructor of both Leung Ting Wing Tsun and Jerry Poteet JKD. I've also used Wing Tsun to defend my life and the lives of others against multiple attackers and armed attackers. So if it doesn't work, the fault isn't with the art, there is just a disconnect somewhere upstream.

    Oddly enough, if you look at very skilled higher level WT and JKD practitioners, you'd have trouble telling them apart.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. FighterTwister

    FighterTwister Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    28
    That is what I am saying to some extent or in other words but in favor of JKD for its practical mechanics in a real fight

    E.g. - Footwork

    Its all experiential and subject to interpretation as one must learn to express it functionally not routinely.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,025
    Likes Received:
    1,184
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    It will make sense to have a JKD and WC tournament. Get together 20 JKD guys and 20 WC guys and see the final score of the tournament.

    Here is a Judo vs. Chinese wrestling. That's the correct MA spirit.

     
  20. FighterTwister

    FighterTwister Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Guys check out Master Wong's YouTube channel the guy is awesome he explains it all better than I can.

    Here is his channel:- Wing Chun Tai Chi JKD - Master Wong

    But he is raw and pulls no punches in his approach to educate people to if you agree with his style to converse all things martial arts you will like him also.

    I like him allot I hope you enjoy listening and watching him.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

can you use jkd without winchun