JKD without Wing Chun?

Discussion in 'JKD / Jeet Kune Do' started by Thunder Foot, Aug 29, 2012.

  1. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

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    Can a person learn/practice Jeet Kune Do without practicing/learning Wing Chun?
     
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  2. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    As a "chunner", I see so many Wing Chun concepts in JKD that I'd bet that even if you stuck to "pure JKD" (whatever that is) you'd be still be learning some of the essence of WC whether you realized it or not. By the same token, I find that as I free up my WC, especially when I'm working with my Escrima partners, sometimes I get more JKD-like ...especially when at medio-largo (longer range). If that makes the uber-traditionalists wince, I'm sorry, but I favor concept oriented MA over a technique oriented approach.
     
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  3. WC_lun

    WC_lun Senior Master

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    Keep in mind also that Mr Lee was not an advanced player of Wing Chun. So even though JKD has a heavy base of Wing Chun, there is a divurgence, about the time of Chum Kui. This isn't necesarily good or bad, its just how it is.
     
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  4. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    according to the guy I trained with, way to briefly, you need either Wnig Chun or Jun Fan as a base for JKD otherwise he felt your JKD was missing something rather important. And form what I experienced I tend to agree
     
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  5. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    In principle, yes--many schools emphasize JKD concepts that re applicable to many systems.

    In practice, it would be hard to find someone who has eliminated the Wing Chun influence and is still doing recognizable JKD, I'd say.
     
  6. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

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    I agree that Wing Chun is a requirement. While many different people practice the concepts, the practice of JKD draws on the fundamental principles of Wing Chun. Learning JKD without an understanding of it results in a watery mess of disfunction.
     
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  7. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    The whole Ted Wong lineage including Ted himself (rip) claim WC was eliminated and argue the recognizable concepts came from fencing.

    To me logic says Bruce trained WC long before he explored in other arts. But that's what they say.

    Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk
     
  8. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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  9. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    You got that right my friend!

    JKD has proven to be a mixed bag of fruit. I've seen, heard and felt a lot. My opinion, Dan Inosanto had it right all along. He deserves a lot more credit than his peers and others give him.

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  10. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    The thing about JKD is you will find different schools of thought in the 1st generation guys (Bruce Lee students) . The man I trained all to briefly with was a studnet of Jerry Poteet who gave him permision to teach and he later trainewith Lamar M. Davis and he is of the beleif that JKD without Jun Fan is not as effective. HE basically put Jun Fan as the undergrad degree and JKD as the masters degree. He truly felt that JKD basics where Jun Fan. He did not think that Wing Chun required to train Jun Fan or JKD but he did think it helped. He did however feel that you really needed Jun Fan, the original Bruce Lee art preJKD to truly understand and use JKD
     
  11. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

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    Ted Wong was a great teacher, but I personally don't believe that Wing Chun was completely eliminated either. Other people around Bruce have said that he continued to chi sau, used WC training methods and techs during his evaluation of fencing. I do understand the nature that statement though. If we take a quick look at fencing principles, we can see some of the structure is aligned with that of WC placing heavy emphasis on the centerline as well as the 4 gates/quadrants. The nature of fencing appears to be a bit more offensive imho, and JKD appears to follow the same school of thought to me. For example in my practice of WC, I was taught trapping can be used as a great tool to control, which appears to me as a defensive strategy. On the opposite end when used offensively, I've learned that trapping can also act as a by-product when your strikes have been defended/countered, which can be considered WC depending on the lineage. Typical trap n hit vs hit n trap analogy. When we look at this 2nd "possible" application, we can see how the trapping element may not always come out if a person is fast enough to score without it. To me, that doesnt mean that its not there, but more towards the idea that the situation didnt call for it.

    As a result, some of the TW guys may not practice it and may miss the element entirely, being left with yet another form of mere kickboxing. I've been told it takes time to develop that sensitivity... time which a lot of folk arent willing to invest.
     
  12. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

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    I agree with this as well, and this is probably one of the major dividing lines between those that see JKD as merely a concept and those that see it as more. For those of us that believe in the importance of Jun Fan Gung Fu though, how well do we understand what we practice? Can we answer simple questions like, what exactly is modified Wing Chun? What did Bruce modify and why? These are questions I've asked myself, and I believe that understanding of a modification can only come by understanding its origin. Of course to learn the movements and go through the motions, WC is not required... but to gain an understanding of what youre doing and why, i think most logical people will investigate the source at some point. Rather than simply going off what someone tells you, I think its important to gain a personal account of it as well.

    Now thats just understanding Jun Fan/mod Wing Chun... going to JKD involves further modification and skill sets. My $0.02.
     
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    My impression is that those focus on concepts think not that they're 'merely' looking at concepts but that, to the contrary, it is they who have gotten past the Jun Fan/Wing Chun to truly see the big picture. I'd still like to see what JKD looks like when applied to a base of Korean arts only, say.
     
  14. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

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    I understand that source of thought but my question to those people would be, "how can you have gotten past what you haven't learned or experienced"? Perception can be deceiving. I dont think anyone can decipher the advanced mathematical calculations of quantum physics, without an understanding of basic algebra. In my most humble opinion, anyone who has gotten past this or that, should be able to reproduce it to a functional degree through their understanding of what they've progressed from. Ask a physicist to solve an algebraic equation, and he can still use basic algebra to solve it.
     
  15. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I was only shown a little JKD and only slightly more Jun Fan but from the little I did get to do Jun Fan seemed to be more direct with less movement and JKD seemed to be only slightly less direct because of its movement. And take this for what it is worth because I did not train It long enough to be considered any real good source when it comes to answering questions about JKD or Jun Fan but Jun Fan seemed to be more concerned with the linear while JKD also had the circular with the linear… if that makes any sense at all
     
  16. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    JKD without WC, yes but JFGF is the base. That's today, as it continues to evolve who knows. Bruce never intended for the confined static art that JKD has become. That's what we let it become but it dosent have to be that way.

    Instead of us conforming to the art, it should be about the art conforming to us.

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  17. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I have often wondered about this when looking at a school teaching jkd because of this quote from Bruce Lee

    What I got almost immediately from my short time in JFKF was that this can work in any art. I looked at it through Xingyiquan and realized there were things in Xingyi that where in JFKF. The simultaneous punch block for instance and the method of training JFKF can be used in any art as well. This is what really impressed me about JFKF
     
  18. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

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    Despite that quote, I have a black belt in "Jeet Kune Do-Kali Concepts." Make of that what you will. Great instructor, great training, good material: Heavy Wing Chun and Western boxing base with a lot of Kali and a fair amount of Muay Thai, then token amounts of other stuff.
     
  19. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

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    And herein lies the doorway to a series of questions in our attempt to understand Jun Fan Gung Fu... what is Jun Fan Gung Fu? Many have referred to it as Modified Wing Chun. So where does Wing Chun stop and Jun Fan start? What exactly was modified and why? Which tools does JFGF possess that are common with WC? Which tools does it possess that aren't?
    What I'm getting at is that many of us site JFGF as the base for which to express our own JKD, but how many of us have actually taken time to understand and define what JFGF is? How can we hope to ultimately express our own JKD, if we can't express or understand it's base?

    Learning and understanding the confinements of your Art does not define a person to "confined" or "static" art. On the contrary, understanding these limitations should empower us with the knowledge to observe and liberate ourselves from them. Again, my humble opinion and POV.
     
  20. Thunder Foot

    Thunder Foot Purple Belt

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    Great to hear! I've also trained JKD Concepts for a comparable amount of time, however my instructors never really handed out belts.
     

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