It's all the same

[elder999]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1545260262434843

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I have seen this video several times in recent months on my Facebook feed. I like it. I feel it is a very valid comparison between selected techniques in 'traditional' martial arts and actual fighting as seen in MMA type events.

I especially like the so-called 'Wansu dump', which I have been told *many* times, including on MT, that it doesn't work, is impractical, and is often cited as one of the reasons they feel kata sucks. Huh. Looks to me as though it works pretty darn well. Maybe it's my eyes that are going.

However, videos like this are also part of the reason I am trying not to engage quite so much in the usual "kata sucks," "TMA is stupid," etc, debates. to those who think traditional martial arts suck, OK. if they think kata is stupid and pointless? OK. Their loss. Go on with your bad self.

I don't argue it anymore, or at least I try not to. I have things to do, including practicing worthless, pointless, kata.

 

[Tez3]

Oh I do like that video!! thank you for posting.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This is my third time recently seeing this video, and I love it every time I do

 

[JowGaWolf]

That pretty much sums up what I've been trying to say in Martial Talk. That video should be the response for any topic of Kata Sucks, MMA is better than TMA, TMA doesn't work in the ring, or TMA can't beat MMA type discussions. Whoever made that video must have really spent a lot of time of identifying and matching up the techniques.

 

[yak sao]

Silly MMA guys, doing all that stuff that doesn't work

 

[JR 137]

I've seen that video plenty of times too, and it's quite good.

Personally, I think kata gets a bad rep because there's so many people out there teaching it wrong. Not the movements, but the application. Too many people teach it as defending multiple attackers with block, punch, kick. Too many doing it solely as a dance for a trophy rather than for what it was designed for. Too many people not practicing the applications against a resisting partner. Too many people coming up with unrealistic and/or overly complicated applications.

I'm not saying I'm some authority on kata and bunkai. Not even close. But the so called "traditionalists" (that's another thread) who only practice making kata pretty and point fight seem to get the most attention and students, thereby stereotyping the rest. If you think karate has a stigma, TKD has it far worse (at least where I've been).

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do MMA coaches talk about the history of the techniques that they use? Do they point

I've seen that video plenty of times too, and it's quite good.

Personally, I think kata gets a bad rep because there's so many people out there teaching it wrong. Not the movements, but the application. Too many people teach it as defending multiple attackers with block, punch, kick. Too many doing it solely as a dance for a trophy rather than for what it was designed for. Too many people not practicing the applications against a resisting partner. Too many people coming up with unrealistic and/or overly complicated applications.

I'm not saying I'm some authority on kata and bunkai. Not even close. But the so called "traditionalists" (that's another thread) who only practice making kata pretty and point fight seem to get the most attention and students, thereby stereotyping the rest. If you think karate has a stigma, TKD has it far worse (at least where I've been).

Worse than Kung Fu?

 

[Andrew Green]

Comparing techniques is really not looking at the whole picture. Styles aren't really defined by their techniques alone, but training methods.

Kata contain movement, and movement is pretty much universal. We only move in so many ways. And the same techniques have been getting used under different banners for 1000's of years.

But to say they are the same is misleading. It's like saying improve jazz and classical music are the same because they both contain the same notes. Of course they do, notes are universal, but that is not what makes classical and jazz different "styles" of music.

 

[JR 137]

Do MMA coaches talk about the history of the techniques that they use? Do they point
Worse than Kung Fu?

I don't understand your post. I think it's the formatting.

 

[mograph]

It's like saying improv jazz and classical music are the same because they both contain the same notes. Of course they do, notes are universal, but that is not what makes classical and jazz different "styles" of music.

Yep. They differ in rhythm, timing, and how the components (e.g. notes, or feet/fists) are combined.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't understand your post. I think it's the formatting.

Sorry. I not sure what happened there. Sometimes the site saves a draft of the message being typed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Comparing techniques is really not looking at the whole picture. Styles aren't really defined by their techniques alone, but training methods.

Kata contain movement, and movement is pretty much universal. We only move in so many ways. And the same techniques have been getting used under different banners for 1000's of years.

But to say they are the same is misleading. It's like saying improve jazz and classical music are the same because they both contain the same notes. Of course they do, notes are universal, but that is not what makes classical and jazz different "styles" of music.

Yet people study jazz and classical music. They are influenced and even use the same pieces that are played in jazz and classical. Even rap music takes samples from jazz and classical. While the entire music isn't classical or jazz. That one sample of music is the same. That video shows MMA and TMA in the same light. While MMA is not the same system, those clips are samples of the same techniques.

 

[Mephisto]

Great video. The problem is in the application. Can the guys who train these moves in kata reliably extract them and use them on a resisting opponent? Imo some can and some can't and that's where kata gets a bad rep. In a sport context the fighter knows when and where and how to apply a move, in kata a movement can be performed and the practirioner may have no clue as to the true application of the technique. Regardless kata has value aside from fighting application and some people get a lot of meaning out of it. However, discrepancies arise when those who are unable to prove their ability to apply the techniques against a resisting opponent criticize those that can (like mma guys, TMA vs sport ma debate) and assert that they are more suited for combat.

 

[drop bear]

Silly MMA guys, doing all that stuff that doesn't work

Well that tma stuff may work in the ring. But it is different when it is on the street.

 

[drop bear]

Great video. The problem is in the application. Can the guys who train these moves in kata reliably extract them and use them on a resisting opponent? Imo some can and some can't and that's where kata gets a bad rep. In a sport context the fighter knows when and where and how to apply a move, in kata a movement can be performed and the practirioner may have no clue as to the true application of the technique. Regardless kata has value aside from fighting application and some people get a lot of meaning out of it. However, discrepancies arise when those who are unable to prove their ability to apply the techniques against a resisting opponent criticize those that can (like mma guys, TMA vs sport ma debate) and assert that they are more suited for combat.

There is stuff that works. And generally it will work anywhere. In the ring in self defence and in training.

There is also stuff that doesn't work. And that generally occures across the board as well.

guys who are training properly will do fine in all three circumstances.

 

[Steve]

I love that video. Maybe we can finally put an end to all the TMA guys disparaging MMA and we can all agree that it will work just fine and is just as good as training with kata.

 

[hoshin1600]

Can the guys who train these moves in kata reliably extract them and use them on a resisting opponent? Imo some can and some can't and that's where kata gets a bad rep.

yes some can and some cant, but thats not why kata gets put down by those who dont practice it. its because the people who put down kata see no value in it. they have a biased out look on something they have never done and/ or dont understand.
i will admit that a large majority of kata practitioners also have no deep understanding of kata, but kata in and of itself does not make someone a good fighter nor does it make them a poor fighter. its been said 1000 times, its just another tool in the box for training.
critics of kata will see a poor quality martial artist and equate that with kata. they seem the forget there are many MMA guys like George St. pierre who i believe was a kyokushin guy. im sure he spent years and years doing kata and probably still does. it didnt seem to effect him in any negative way.

 

[mograph]

they seem the forget there are many MMA guys like George St. pierre who i believe was a kyokushin guy.

Yep. UFC Welterweight Champion Georges St-Pierre visits Honbu | News Release | IKO Kyokushinkaikan

 

[MAfreak]

good compilation. its like i like to say, that the difference isn't in the techniques themselves but in the training methods of them which would make it more or less effective.