Issue Belts to Son?

[RTKDCMB]

In my mind, rank progression provides two things 1)a motivational opportunity and 2)a goal to aim towards peaking for. As you get higher in rank (and 1st/2nd Dan isn't high rank) the gradings get further apart for motivation, but you should still aim test when the time limits have been met so that you are working hard to be ready at that time (peaking) and therefore improving your overall skill level.

In the color belt levels, definitely, when the students get to 1st Dan they should start to have a bit of independence and be able to motivate themselves, it's a continuous improvement process that you should be working hard throughout. Black belts that can't motivated without having an immediate goal ahead of them such as a promotion tend to lose interest, it happened to me after I was a 1st Dan and I ended up leaving. It wasn't until I got older that I realized how short sighted and impatient that was.

I think if a 1st Dan waits for 6 years to test for 2nd Dan, they have either been coasting and not really training hard during that time; or they have been, but just aren't as far along with rank as they should be.

If they are in a system that promotes in such relatively short periods then yes, if not then it doesn't mean anything.

Particularly, 1st-2nd Dan is just a filter period - do people quit once they've got their coveted black belt - or do they then knuckle down and get ready to go further. It doesn't take long to find out what kind of person they are and when you do, then move them on (either way).

Each to their own though...

A 1 year filter period is not much time to separate the quitters from the knuckle downers , if they only have to wait one year then the quitter types might say, "Well it's only 1 more year, I'll quit after 2nd Dan" and those who will tough it out for a few years and stay motivated without that immediate goal, I believe, will be the stronger for it.

 

[Archtkd]

You will probably find that most other martial arts styles will not have 7th Dans that young and that grandmasters are often 9th Dans and above.

This has nothing to do with the orgininal question in this thread, but being 35 is not "that young". Many great men and women -- that includes martial arts teachers -- do their best work in their 30s. Modern taekwondo was created by leaders in their 30s. Gichin Funakoshi the founder of Shotokan karate did some of his best work in his 30s and by age 44 was president of the Okinawan Shobukai. Toyama Kanken the founder of Shudokan karate -- also came into his element in his mid to late 30s. Modern taekwondo has substantial roots in Shotokan and Shudokan. Bruce Lee also did his best work in his 30s, The list could go on .... Jesus Christ, Budha, Martin Luther King Jr.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There is no consistency in Dan rankings between schools even in the same art let alone other arts so its not a very accurate measure of ones ability, knowledge and experience to anyone outside their own organization.

I agree. But if that's how you truly feel, why the snarky comment about KKW rank earlier in the thread? If there's no consistency then singling out one as good and another as bad based entirely on arbitrary numbers assigned by different systems is kind of pointless.

Having said that, the grading shenannigans at taekwondo schools seem to be fairly consistent, though I have seen them in non TKD schools as well.

We don't actually have a time in grade requirement, promotion to higher Dans is by invitation only.

Nothing wrong with that, but again, different system. In the end, you've got quantity of years of experience and a certain quality of experience which is dependent upon both the effort of the students and the instructors. No amount of promotion can replace those years or alter the quality of them.

A KKW fourth dan represents between seven and ten years of experience, depending on the school in question. I don't look for a KKW fourth dan to reflect several decades of experience. If s/he does, then awesome, but s/he is the exception and not the rule.

A fourth dan in your system clearly represents something different, given that fourth dans in your system have three or more decades of training. Comparing dans is pointless, as they each represent something different. Comparing a ten year KKW practitioner with a ten year practitioner of your TKD system (forget the dan grade) would make more sense.

Out of curiosity, what is the system you practice and what is the highest rank? No value judgement; just curious.

 

[TKDTony2179]

IMHO 6 years sounds about how long it should take to get from 1st to 2nd Dan, and that's being conservative.

WOW!!!! That is a long time to be training just for a title for 2nd dan. So how long would it take for white to 1st? Would I still be paying you for classes? How many times do I come to class?

So if I am 20 and 1st dan, I would test at 26 and if passed I would test for my 3 another 6 yrs or would it double and it be like 12?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I agree. But if that's how you truly feel, why the snarky comment about KKW rank earlier in the thread? If there's no consistency then singling out one as good and another as bad based entirely on arbitrary numbers assigned by different systems is kind of pointless.

Wasn't trying to be snarky, just pointing out that it is an unusually short time between Dans compared to most other martial arts.

Out of curiosity, what is the system you practice and what is the highest rank? No value judgement; just curious.

Rhee Taekwondo is the system studied, the highest ranks are 9th, 8th and 7th Dan for the 3 Rhee brothers.The next highest is 5th Dan, there was on 6th Dan but a couple of years ago he and one of the 5th Dans left and formed their own school.

 

[RTKDCMB]

WOW!!!! That is a long time to be training just for a title for 2nd dan. So how long would it take for white to 1st? Would I still be paying you for classes? How many times do I come to class?

So if I am 20 and 1st dan, I would test at 26 and if passed I would test for my 3 another 6 yrs or would it double and it be like 12?

White to 1st Dan varies greatly and depends on several factors such as; starting age, how often and consistent the student can train, the amount of effort put in, attitude, natural learning ability etc. Junior black belts and 1st Dans pay a just the training fee and not grading fees and may pay a reduced fee if they help out a little in class. Instructors do not pay fees at all and any student can come to as many classes as they want. As for the dan grades there is no formal or standard time between ranks, 1st to 2nd Dan has a relatively long time and 2nd to 3rd relatively short.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Wasn't trying to be snarky, just pointing out that it is an unusually short time between Dans compared to most other martial arts.

I don't know. The pattern of a year for either your current dan or your next dan seems pretty consistent, and no kyu/dan system that I am aware of had the kind of time frames that you describe in your own. The sharpest contrasts in TIG with kyu/dan is usually in the kyu grades and qualifications for shodan.

This is where all of the debates about both time in grade, minimum ages, debates about testing methods, pum belts, and number of belts takes place. Not coincidentally, kyu grades and shodan are where schools make the majority of their money.

Rhee Taekwondo is the system studied, the highest ranks are 9th, 8th and 7th Dan for the 3 Rhee brothers.The next highest is 5th Dan, there was on 6th Dan but a couple of years ago he and one of the 5th Dans left and formed their own school.

So basically, unless you're a founding member, the highest is fifth dan. Which if I recall was as high as it went for quite some time.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So basically, unless you're a founding member, the highest is fifth dan. Which if I recall was as high as it went for quite some time.

I'm sure that some of the 5th Dans will get higher eventually.

 

[David Lader]

I am a 5th Degree Tae Kwon Do Master, and you have every right to issue any belt and train your child any way you see fit... True, there will likely be some credibility issues later on if your son wishes to be recognized with an official TKD rank in another school or organization. Still, if your child's training with you is strong and substantive, he will be, most likely, "re-ranked" by any reasonable instructor. On the other hand, even if he must begin at white belt again if he seeks another teacher, or even another martial art completely, that should really not matter... Ideally, we are all more concerned with authentic movement and training and not just rank. Good luck and let me know how it goes... Peace to you...
David M. Lader
Tucson, Arizona
www.warriorsdance.com

 

[Earl Weiss]

From a historical perspective most of the time in grade questions for promotion are BS if they involve long times. Before the round eyes got involved on a large scale, the Koreasn moved along pretty quickly. An available example is one of the pioneers, Han Cha Kyo. Born in 1934, he is listed as an assistant instructor in the ROK in 1950. In those days being a 16 yrear old instructor was unusual to say the least. He became an 8th Dan in 1973, (#k-8-6) at 39 years of age. I doubt he was training much before 1948 since Nam Tae Hi born in 1929 is listed as his Senior and Instructor and he started in 1946. So that would have been 25 years from white belt to 8th Dan.

 

[TKDTony2179]

White to 1st Dan varies greatly and depends on several factors such as; starting age, how often and consistent the student can train, the amount of effort put in, attitude, natural learning ability etc. Junior black belts and 1st Dans pay a just the training fee and not grading fees and may pay a reduced fee if they help out a little in class. Instructors do not pay fees at all and any student can come to as many classes as they want. As for the dan grades there is no formal or standard time between ranks, 1st to 2nd Dan has a relatively long time and 2nd to 3rd relatively short.

Well every school and teacher are different. Just sounds strange and out of the norm. To each is his own.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

From a historical perspective most of the time in grade questions for promotion are BS if they involve long times. Before the round eyes got involved on a large scale, the Koreasn moved along pretty quickly. An available example is one of the pioneers, Han Cha Kyo. Born in 1934, he is listed as an assistant instructor in the ROK in 1950. In those days being a 16 yrear old instructor was unusual to say the least. He became an 8th Dan in 1973, (#k-8-6) at 39 years of age. I doubt he was training much before 1948 since Nam Tae Hi born in 1929 is listed as his Senior and Instructor and he started in 1946. So that would have been 25 years from white belt to 8th Dan.

This did seem to be a Korean norm, and still does in many quarters. And it isn't limited to just TKD. In the Hapkido section last year we discussed Ji Han Jae who was an 8th Dan by his mid to late 20's after only about 16 total years of training.

 

[Archtkd]

Rhee Taekwondo is the system studied, the highest ranks are 9th, 8th and 7th Dan for the 3 Rhee brothers.The next highest is 5th Dan, there was on 6th Dan but a couple of years ago he and one of the 5th Dans left and formed their own school.

Just curious and I think this might have been mentioned in a fairly hot thread in 2011. What was the highest rank GM Jhoon Rhee attained in the Chung Do Kwan -- in which he trained from the age of 15 in 1947, to the age of 18, in the 1950s? How old was GM Rhee, when he was promoted to 8th Dan by Gen, Choi? How old was GM Rhee when he created his system?

 

[RTKDCMB]

Just curious and I think this might have been mentioned in a fairly hot thread in 2011. What was the highest rank GM Jhoon Rhee attained in the Chung Do Kwan -- in which he trained from the age of 15 in 1947, to the age of 18, in the 1950s? How old was GM Rhee, when he was promoted to 8th Dan by Gen, Choi? How old was GM Rhee when he created his system?

Jhoon Rhee is no relation to the ones in my school so you will have to look that up.

 

[Archtkd]

Jhoon Rhee is no relation to the ones in my school so you will have to look that up.

My apologies. I assumed it was the Rhee system here in the U.S, began by GM Jhoon Rhee. Is yours the Australian one?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My apologies. I assumed it was the Rhee system here in the U.S, began by GM Jhoon Rhee. Is yours the Australian one?

Actually, there are other Rhees in the US. One promoted Elvis Presley to 7th dan. http://kangrhee.com/elvis/ There were two Rhee brothers in Best of the Best.

I don't know if any of them are the Rhee brothers that RTKDCMB was referring to. Rhee is, as I understand, a fairly common name.

 

[RTKDCMB]

My apologies. I assumed it was the Rhee system here in the U.S, began by GM Jhoon Rhee. Is yours the Australian one?

Yes.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Actually, there are other Rhees in the US. One promoted Elvis Presley to 7th dan. http://kangrhee.com/elvis/ There were two Rhee brothers in Best of the Best.

I don't know if any of them are the Rhee brothers that RTKDCMB was referring to. Rhee is, as I understand, a fairly common name.

They are not.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Actually, there are other Rhees in the US. One promoted Elvis Presley to 7th dan. http://kangrhee.com/elvis/

That's the one that runs the World Black Belt Bureau.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's the one that runs the World Black Belt Bureau.

The world black belt bureau: http://www.worldblackbeltbureau.com/