Isshin Ryu

[Tames D]

"A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing."

- Oscar Wilde

Why is it every time a poster says a price and a contract, people pile in on it? 'The teacher is going to make a living by teaching? MCDOJO!!!!'

I wonder what responses you're going to get from paying what you pay. And I'm pretty sure they have no idea what your sifu is paying for rent or a mortgage on the building, let alone taxes.

I'm not sure where you are going with this? I don't care what people think about how much I'm paying or about my training. I only mentioned it as reference. Did I come across like I was complaining about his payment or mine? That wasn't my intention.

EDIT: I think I may have misunderstood your post, JR. My apologies.

 

[jks9199]

As a system, Isshin Ryu is solid -- but like all systems, it really depends on the instructor, the student, and the alchemy between them.

So.... the cost? Can't say, because a lot depends on the local market. That's a call you have to make for yourself.

The promotion rate? Not enough to go on. OK, 4 belts in a few months, and movement to the "intermediate class." Maybe you start fast, then slow down a lot, and take more time in the intermediate class. I like the 2 "new material" and 1 reinforcer class idea.

Bottom line? Go, see what you think for yourself.

 

[JR 137]

I'm not sure where you are going with this? I don't care what people think about how much I'm paying or about my training. I only mentioned it as reference. Did I come across like I was complaining about his payment or mine? That wasn't my intention.

EDIT: I think I may have misunderstood your post, JR. My apologies.

I'm on your side. I like what you said about how much you pay, and it's worth it. People were saying the dojo in question was too expensive. Seriously? No one knows where the dojo is. No one knows who's running it. No one knows what the monthly tuition covers. Basically, no one knows anything. Maybe it's in Venice Beach (the OP's screen name)? Venice Beach ain't cheap.

 

[VeniceBeach]

What if they had previous experience? You have previous karate (Shotokan) experience. I'd assume you'd advance quicker than someone with zero experience. Or perhaps they were very good athletes and/or students.

I know it sounds like I'm making excuses. I'm just giving you things to consider. I don't know the school, nor do I have any bias towards where you study. I always give the same advice- visit the school, see if it's a good fit for you. The most important thing is what's going on on the floor.

The Student that I know DOES NOT have previous experience. This is his first physical activity. He is not an athlete.

 

[VeniceBeach]

I am in Hawaii. venice beach is the name of a song I like. I am not really surprised by the price. I have seen some more expensive. It is the quick promotions.

 

[dancingalone]

Let's say the promotions are a little aggressive and perhaps the same equivalent kyu rank in this dojo are less developed across the board than in your old Shotokan one. This shouldn't matter at all, ultimately, if the quality of instruction is good and you feel like you are progressing at a good rate personally.

Don't measure the quality of a school by student ranks, especially in terms of performance of the colored belts, the majority of whom will be children or teenagers. Instead look at the instructors and the senior students. What do they look like? Are they crisp? Do they move fluidly with readily apparent power? If so, then the school clearly has the potential to produce more good students.

Business practices aside, if you're in it for the long haul, promotions, quick or otherwise, don't matter at all.

 

[wingchun100]

I am a little suspicious that she didn't tell me about the contracts over the phone. I found out from one of their students.

In my former Shotokan club, we were tested every three months. We spent a longer time on a belt color.

It is pretty typical for anyone selling anything to NOT tell you prices over the phone because some kind of studies have shown it is harder for people to say "no" in person. Over the phone, it is a lot less awkward to simply hang up.

 

[wingchun100]

"A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing."

- Oscar Wilde

Why is it every time a poster says a price and a contract, people pile in on it? 'The teacher is going to make a living by teaching? MCDOJO!!!!'

I wonder what responses you're going to get from paying what you pay. And I'm pretty sure they have no idea what your sifu is paying for rent or a mortgage on the building, let alone taxes.

Right, but sometimes it is all about getting the money for those belts and those testing fees.

I never understood "testing fees" anyway. I mean, if you are testing in the same facility where you take classes, then there is no extra rent for the instructor. Also, if the person judging whether or not you get your next belt is the same instructor and their assistant instructors/senior students, then it's not like you had to pay someone to make a special appearance. That always puzzled me.

 

[WaterGal]

Is $130 really that high? In the Albany, NY area, $120/month seems to be the norm for full-time dojos. Contracts are also the norm.

Yeah, the cost of training reallllllllly varies by location, because of differences in cost-of-living in different places. Where I live, $100-130/mo is the normal price for 2-3 classes a week. I used to work in a wealthier area, and the school down the street from my job wanted $160/mo. I don't think anyone can make an informed statement that "that's way too expensive!" unless they live in the same area as the person posting.

Then there's the first 4 belts at 2 month intervals thing. If students are learning what they need to learn for those ranks, what's the difference if they're 2 month intervals or not?

How do they define "intermediate student?" Is it the step after beginner? Maybe an intermediate student is a student that's learned and shown proficiency in basic blocks, strikes, stances, etc. I'd say 8 months is long enough for that. I'm not saying students regularly show mastery of the basics in 8 months, but they should show proficiency in them in that time frame.

Yeah, a lot of this really depends on the style, how many color belts there are, how they define "intermediate", how advanced of a rank they consider 1st dan to be, how much the students practice...... if the school he were talking about was a KKW Taekwondo school, I wouldn't consider the things mentioned to raise serious red flags assuming the students were dedicated in their training, but KKW TKD doesn't consider 1st dan/poom to be a very high rank. I think we need someone who's studied Isshin Ryu to give a more informed opinion about what's typical in that style.

 

[dancingalone]

I never understood "testing fees" anyway. I mean, if you are testing in the same facility where you take classes, then there is no extra rent for the instructor. Also, if the person judging whether or not you get your next belt is the same instructor and their assistant instructors/senior students, then it's not like you had to pay someone to make a special appearance. That always puzzled me.

It's just another revenue structure where the owner assumes/directs that some of his money will come from testing fees. This way the student doesn't get hit all at once through a tuition fee. Obviously, another approach is through a comprehensive tuition where everything is covered in a monthly membership.

There are advantages to both methods as a school owner, depending on how he chooses to market and take in his fees. It's really all the same if as a student and consumer you calculate a true cost of membership. See the below simplified example.

($100 monthly X 12 months) + ($50 belt exam X 2) = $1300
($110 monthly X 12 months) = $1320

It's the same amount ultimately to the student in both scenarios assuming he sits for 2 exams in that one year.

 

[Andrew Green]

It is pretty typical for anyone selling anything to NOT tell you prices over the phone because some kind of studies have shown it is harder for people to say "no" in person. Over the phone, it is a lot less awkward to simply hang up.

It's more the ability to establish value before discussing price. If price is the only variable you have in front of you then it is all you will use to make your choice. But it is not the only thing you should look at.

Think about it in any other context, if you where buying a tv, you wouldn't just call a place and ask how much a tv is. You'd look at size, resolution, colour quality, etc. Just calling 2 places and getting 2 prices then going with the cheapest option without actually looking at the product would be a poor way to make a choice.

This practice might change as the way we make choices changes. A few years back if you wanted to train you grabbed the yellow pages. Now you can visit a website, see online reviews, probably see pictures and videos from classes. You can find out a lot more about a place without leaving the house now, so prices up front might become less of a issue.

But there will always be bottom feeders that try to promote themselves as the cheapest option. I don't want to compete with them, nor would any other full time school. You just can't do it and offer the same sort of service.

The fees are not out of line for a full time school, 130 / month is pretty normal. As for the promotion cycle, it really depends. That is not enough to make any sort of call. The biggest changes in your ability are going to happen at the beginning. So if the belts go quick in the beginning to reflect this that's fine. What really matters is the quality of what you are learning, the safety involved and whether or not you are enjoying it. How they assign belts doesn't make much difference. all they are is to show progress within he school / organization and improve retention through goal setting.

 

[Tez3]

I never understood "testing fees" anyway. I mean, if you are testing in the same facility where you take classes, then there is no extra rent for the instructor. Also, if the person judging whether or not you get your next belt is the same instructor and their assistant instructors/senior students, then it's not like you had to pay someone to make a special appearance. That always puzzled me.

Some associations require the instructors to register the promotions and charge for supplying the certification. There's also belts to buy as well. Often gradings are held at weekends or at different times to the normal training, this may well incur more rent and/or utilities. Why should instructors give their time up for free though? You pay for instruction, paying for grading as long as it's not extortionate is quite a appropriate.

 

[JR 137]

Right, but sometimes it is all about getting the money for those belts and those testing fees.

I never understood "testing fees" anyway. I mean, if you are testing in the same facility where you take classes, then there is no extra rent for the instructor. Also, if the person judging whether or not you get your next belt is the same instructor and their assistant instructors/senior students, then it's not like you had to pay someone to make a special appearance. That always puzzled me.

In addition to what dancingalone said, sometimes the overseeing organization charges a fee. Let's say that a karate organization issues certificates and keeps records of all students who've promoted to what rank and when, I'm sure they want a few dollars for their time. Also some organizations may mandate that all instructors charge a standardized testing fee. If dojo X is charging too much or too little, it doesn't bode well for the rest of the dojos.

I have no idea if Seido charges my teacher for certificates. I also have no idea if all Seido schools charge the same fee for promotion. But if my teacher isn't charging anything and the guy 30 miles away is charging $50, it could cause some issues. Not a big deal in Albany where there's only 1 dojo, but it could be an issue in NYC where there's 7 or 8. If you make it a blanket policy to charge a set fee, everyone's on equal footing.

 

[Andrew Green]

Right, but sometimes it is all about getting the money for those belts and those testing fees.

I never understood "testing fees" anyway. I mean, if you are testing in the same facility where you take classes, then there is no extra rent for the instructor. Also, if the person judging whether or not you get your next belt is the same instructor and their assistant instructors/senior students, then it's not like you had to pay someone to make a special appearance. That always puzzled me.

You pay for testing / graduation. It's sometimes just part of your monthly fee, sometimes it is a separate charge, but you do pay for it.

Graduations take a lot of time and money, at least they can depending on how they are done. Even if done in house they can cost a bit. All the staff there need to get paid, belts need to get paid for, there is a fair bit of time put into just organizing the event itself.

As far as splitting it into a separate cost... that's just a business decision the school makes as to what works best for them.

 

[marques]

Right, but sometimes it is all about getting the money for those belts and those testing fees.

I never understood "testing fees" anyway. I mean, if you are testing in the same facility where you take classes, then there is no extra rent for the instructor. Also, if the person judging whether or not you get your next belt is the same instructor and their assistant instructors/senior students, then it's not like you had to pay someone to make a special appearance. That always puzzled me.

I was thinking like you for long time. Now I think the purpose is to offer sort of rite of passage. The cost goes for the extra time (graduations up to usual class time) and eventually extra rent cost. And belts. And graduations also are a supplementary profit, obviously. Andrew Green already explained the business side well.

 

[WaterGal]

Graduations take a lot of time and money, at least they can depending on how they are done. Even if done in house they can cost a bit. All the staff there need to get paid, belts need to get paid for, there is a fair bit of time put into just organizing the event itself.

Yeah, every time we put on a test, we probably spend ~20 hours planning, promoting it, pre-screening students, giving students who are borderline-ready a little extra help, registering students, filling out dozens of certificates, setting things up, doing the actual test, cleaning up, and having a follow-up meeting with all of the instructors to discuss how it went and how we can improve it in the future. Plus, belts and boards and certificates cost money.

 

[jks9199]

seems like the promotion rate is a big concern to you. Let me build on what I said earlier...

You know one case where a person rapidly moved from beginner to intermediate. Let's assume that's typical. We still haven't heard how long a typical student spends in the intermediate ranks, nor how long it takes overall to reach black belt. I know of some schools in my area that, if you attend all the classes and all the "special training events" and make all the tests on schedule, you'll reach a black belt in about 18 months. Now, there's the whole debate about how long it should take to make black belt -- but that's a whole 'nother issue. (Quick summary of my take... depends on the school and what they define a black belt as being.) So, this school may quickly move students out of the beginner classes, then they might stay there in intermediate for a longer period -- let's guess twice as long for discussion... and then perhaps another 8 months or a year in an advanced class before making black belt. Would that make more sense time vs advancement to you?

 

[VeniceBeach]

Yes spending a much longer time in the intermediate phase and finally advanced phase with a lot of "correction" (were needed) makes much more sense.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the student I know is a child. The info I got was from the parents. They watch their child train all the time.

 

[Tez3]

The info I got was from the parents. They watch their child train all the time.

Ah parents...... never the best 'witnesses'.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Yes spending a much longer time in the intermediate phase and finally advanced phase with a lot of "correction" (were needed) makes much more sense.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the student I know is a child. The info I got was from the parents. They watch their child train all the time.

Does the parent actually /watch/ the class or just sit there on there phones or reading or chatting to another parent. From my experience very few parents actually watch the class properly so only get a small idea of what's actually happening and misunderstands things