Israeli Krav - Turtle Shell

Tony Dismukes

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Jitsers used to be mad keen on this. John will did a video on it somewhere.

Haven't seen it in a while.
In the early days of MMA I also saw some wrestlers use it to good advantage. As Matt says, it's useful for someone who hasn't yet developed a strong boxing foundation to keep from getting knocked out while they close the gap to grappling range. I still teach a variation to beginning jiu-jitsu students for that purpose. It takes less time to train a beginner to some sort of basic functionality with this simple approach than with a standard boxing guard.

You don't see it much in modern MMA at the professional level because the sport has progressed so far. A skilled fighter who can box, kick, and grapple will take advantage of the openings the guard leaves. Also, a pro fighter should have enough boxing skill to not need this simplified approach.

Rodney King of Crazy Monkey Boxing developed a similar approach for a different reason. His foundation is in boxing, but he observed that the average beginning student (one without natural talent, who didn't grow up boxing or brawling) would freak out in sparring primarily due to the fear of getting hit in the face. Either their technique would fall apart, or they would quit training, or they would stay in training and take a lot of head trauma by the time they developed good boxing skills. By starting them out with a structure which is very good at protecting the head (although it has other weaknesses), these students were better able to relax, focus on technique, and not develop brain damage before they got good at boxing.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Just watched the video. That particular variation of the guard is not one I care for, but the idea is similar to what I was discussing in my previous comment.
 
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TMA17

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I figured this may be a popular position in different arts, as Krav really just borrows from other arts.
 

drop bear

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In the early days of MMA I also saw some wrestlers use it to good advantage. As Matt says, it's useful for someone who hasn't yet developed a strong boxing foundation to keep from getting knocked out while they close the gap to grappling range. I still teach a variation to beginning jiu-jitsu students for that purpose. It takes less time to train a beginner to some sort of basic functionality with this simple approach than with a standard boxing guard.

You don't see it much in modern MMA at the professional level because the sport has progressed so far. A skilled fighter who can box, kick, and grapple will take advantage of the openings the guard leaves. Also, a pro fighter should have enough boxing skill to not need this simplified approach.

Rodney King of Crazy Monkey Boxing developed a similar approach for a different reason. His foundation is in boxing, but he observed that the average beginning student (one without natural talent, who didn't grow up boxing or brawling) would freak out in sparring primarily due to the fear of getting hit in the face. Either their technique would fall apart, or they would quit training, or they would stay in training and take a lot of head trauma by the time they developed good boxing skills. By starting them out with a structure which is very good at protecting the head (although it has other weaknesses), these students were better able to relax, focus on technique, and not develop brain damage before they got good at boxing.

For MMA the change levels probably solves entering in to the clinch a bit more efficiently. Rather than wading in to punches.
 

frank raud

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Don't like it.

Looks like it would work against someone who punches and freezes but against a live fighter?

Wouldn't your opponent just need to lower his level, come up underneath your elbows, wrap his arms around you, pick you up and slam you? or slip an arm triangle on you?

And is it really an elbow strike? Looks more like a poke with the elbow.

That just looks like a technique that is gonna lead you to getting taken down.

Not to mention you are wide open for body strikes.
There are several faults that I see with how the technique is being shown. I don't like the hand on bicep, as I think it would be too easy to trap both hands. I think standing upright is not the best way to be taking a power shot, better to sink your weight to be able to take the brunt of the force against you. Whether you want to think of it as a boxer's crouch, or nose over toes like a football player.
I would hope that if you are fighting against a live fighter, that you would not just puts your hands up in a blocking position and think it is over. There are multiple techniques you can transition to. Look at the ISR Matrix video I posted. Is it really an elbow strike? I weigh 220lbs. If I drive into you with a leading elbow, I'm doubting you will volunteer your face as a target. I've been hit with that elbow on numerous times, it sucks.
 

Martial D

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So many ways to skin a cat.... I like the idea behind this one. If you can move fast enough and maintain distance and someone is throwing multiple punches I think this could be effective. Move in and it sets you up for a nice elbow strike. Doesn’t show it until 4:29 mark.

I don’t know if this is something he made up or is taught in Israeli Krav.

I can see a lot of problems with that double elbow charge thing. It exposes the entire body, if the other guy knows thing one about wrestling or juijitsu it's over for turtle guy. Also knees to the body. Also seems to rely on a stationary opponent.

Like most krav I've seen, this seems to be reliant on a cooperative and unskilled opponent.
 

Anarax

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Firstly, I hope the guy who got beaten down IS still alive. There's definitely a line somewhere during the altercation that those guys crossed. That being said, when you smack someone sitting down in the back of the neck, stick your chest out, put your face one inch away from someone trying to deescalate it then stand over the guy you slapped, you were obviously looking for a confrontation. Again, those guys took it WAY too far.
 

Gerry Seymour

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It’s probably safer if you know your opponent. If he lacks a power hook, the body shots aren’t a grave concern, since you’re moving in fast.
 

marques

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This is a "common" technique found in a few different martial arts systems that really started with Keysi Fighting Method. It is also used in Defence Lab, ...

Some people find the braced arms concept "stupid" because it leaves an opening to the mid-section, but we use it mostly as an entering tool, multiple attacker defense, or just "oh sh*t' defense.
It is a bit risky to tell where something started, but my point is KFM and DL are examples of what I don’t like. They overuse it. More than an instant and we’re killed by grapplers, kickers or good boxers.

On the other hand, the second paragraph is a perfect example of where I would use it. The “bad guy” is smiling, but with unclear instentions... short(ending) distance... he moves an arm and BANG! It doesn’t matter which punch, it doesn’t matter even if it was to be a punch or a push. It is done (quite easily even if I am tired or drunk) I got him by surprise and at short distance I am where I am happy and can control/finish the situation from there easier than from a longer distance (assuming I was able to defend the first punch).
 

Matt Bryers

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In regards to Defence Lab and KFM - yes, they ABSOLUTELY overuse it. It's like the only thing they know! When I was part of Defence Lab, it got to a point where I was like "is there anything more this besides shapes / frames???". I did find the overall concept useful, but do NOT see it as the ONLY answer.

I believe that as in ALL martial arts techniques, you have to find something that works for you and makes sense. The framing concept makes sense to me, we use it in sparring / training all the time. Students who learn it, love it.

It's funny, Gilbert Melendez (UFC Fighter) came to my location for an impromptu seminar. He was visiting ESPN in CT and is a good friend of one my students who is an employee there. We were asking him what are some concepts / techniques he uses to "crash the line", and he basically showed us framing. Of course this is not the only thing he does, but it was a concept that he teaches and uses. So it's hard to say that this in not a viable option, it's just a concept that needs to be trained like anything else, and if it "fits your style" of fighting - then use it!

I did this video a while ago to show some of the multiple attacker drills we use in TRITAC. It's half "fun" and half real, but it's another example of some of the applications we use:


Finally - I am not trying to necessarily "defend" the use of frames - I'm just saying that in my experience, I do find it useful for combat.

Oss.
 

Runs With Fire

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We do a variation of this. The second hand holds the top of your forearm instead of the bicep. my first instructor called "the Krav cover" or "panic cover" and it's only used to close a foot or two of distance. it is kind of a panic last ditch to change it up sort of thing.
 

frank raud

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I can see a lot of problems with that double elbow charge thing. It exposes the entire body, if the other guy knows thing one about wrestling or juijitsu it's over for turtle guy. Also knees to the body. Also seems to rely on a stationary opponent.

Like most krav I've seen, this seems to be reliant on a cooperative and unskilled opponent.
Here is a BJJ black belt, judo brown belt and all around bad *** teaching the shield, as he does in most of his classes. If a black belt under Chris Hauteur and regional director under Matt Thornton finds value in it, perhaps it is not as dangerous to use against a grappler as you may think. Matt Thornton teaches the technique as well. Again I don't like the variation that is shown in the original post, but that doesn't mean the technique is not valid.
 

Martial D

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Here is a BJJ black belt, judo brown belt and all around bad *** teaching the shield, as he does in most of his classes. If a black belt under Chris Hauteur and regional director under Matt Thornton finds value in it, perhaps it is not as dangerous to use against a grappler as you may think. Matt Thornton teaches the technique as well. Again I don't like the variation that is shown in the original post, but that doesn't mean the technique is not valid.
Ok, I watched your video. Then I scratched my head and watched it again. Guys working open guard. Guys working arm and collar ties. Guys doing some (questionable) gun defenses.

I sure didn't see anyone tuck their elbows in to their face and rush in like that, or anything similar. Are you sure you posted the right video?
 
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TMA17

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We do a variation of this. The second hand holds the top of your forearm instead of the bicep. my first instructor called "the Krav cover" or "panic cover" and it's only used to close a foot or two of distance. it is kind of a panic last ditch to change it up sort of thing.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense to use in that situation as a last ditch effort.
 

Runs With Fire

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Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense to use in that situation as a last ditch effort.
There's more to it than just a simple double cover the way I was taught. It is very risky if not done very well. I think a good explanation is video worthy. I will look for my camera when I get home. Will be posted in the Krav section after I stop by McDonalds for wifi sometime tomorrow or Saturday
 

Gerry Seymour

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Ok, I watched your video. Then I scratched my head and watched it again. Guys working open guard. Guys working arm and collar ties. Guys doing some (questionable) gun defenses.

I sure didn't see anyone tuck their elbows in to their face and rush in like that, or anything similar. Are you sure you posted the right video?
Prior to the video segments, there were pictures of the frame. I didn't see anything in the video.
 
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TMA17

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There's more to it than just a simple double cover the way I was taught. It is very risky if not done very well. I think a good explanation is video worthy. I will look for my camera when I get home. Will be posted in the Krav section after I stop by McDonalds for wifi sometime tomorrow or Saturday

I’ll be curious if this is taught in the IKMA school I may attend.
 

frank raud

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Ok, I watched your video. Then I scratched my head and watched it again. Guys working open guard. Guys working arm and collar ties. Guys doing some (questionable) gun defenses.

I sure didn't see anyone tuck their elbows in to their face and rush in like that, or anything similar. Are you sure you posted the right video?
If you look at around the 35-45 second mark, you will see photos (prior to the video)
 

frank raud

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Paul Gomez(RIP) demonstrating the fence to default position(shell) to striking to weapons access.
 

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