Israeli Krav - Turtle Shell
- Thread starter TMA17
- Start date
I don't know how to quote multiple threads, so I'll just reference individual responses here. I use the technique in my system and like it for many reasons, including that it follows a person's natural tendency to react, which is that both hands go up to protect the head and the shoulders shrug. Through a series of simple modifications you get to the particular cover shown in the video. It somewhat, although not so obvious, follows Tony Blauer's research on a body's natural way to react against a punch. Blauer uses Outside 90, but if you follow the same reaction principles that he follows, you can invert the arms and turn it into this particular cover. I don't know if I am saying it correctly; in my head it makes sense. That being said, I would like to respond to a few things that were said in the previous posts, but again, I don't know how to multi-quote, so I'll just reference them:
- This technique is not a Krav technique (at least not from the original Imi Lichtenfeld himself). I have seen Krav do a cover block, but not a both arm cover. There's always a chance that I'm wrong about that, and maybe someone from the Big Four organizations has implemented it. But I don't think Imi included it in his curriculum as it is shown. I learned the technique from Panantukan. Paul Vunak uses a version of it and it is also a part of "gunting" from Filipino boxing.
- I think the way that it is show it is too tight for my taste. The version I use covers the ear and head, with the other hand going and on top of the forearm. It is immediately followed up by a forearm strike to the throat...knees, hammers, etc. Since he is included on this thread, I do like Matt Byers' version of doing a headbutt after the cover (If I remember correctly, he has a technique that does that). It's a hidden headbutt and protects the person doing the headbutt (as it hits with the top of the head and not the forehead.) Most people headbutts incorrectly and risk knocking themselves out...but that's a discussion for another thread.
- I do like that the guy in the video referenced that it is not a "perfect defense." I think in the martial arts we, as experienced MA's, can get a little too technical with techniques and we comment on techniques as if they should be the "absolute end-all". Someone here referenced (I forgot who it was...gp? Tony?) "what happens if they do this? It's a fight. It may happen." I am paraphrasing, but it was a great comment. We all know that not every technique works in every scenario, but some martial artists tend to critique individual techniques as if they are supposed to work in every scenario. Most higher ranking techniques are "counters-to-counters" and may not ever be used in common self defense scenarios. A great technique can be adapted to multiple scenarios, but many techniques are very scenario-specific, and they still have a place.
- Regarding grappling, I was taught a version of the technique in my bjj class. It was a single cover; not a double cover, but it was based on the same principle. I was also taught the same move in my Krav class, but the instructor is also a Gracie student.
- Regarding the technique being "tested in sparring" I think that some techniques don't lend themselves well to sparring. I think some of the videos that were posted show that the technique can be effective in scenario-training, but the effectiveness of an individual technique in sparring can be influenced by what type of sparring is done (tag/point sparring with gloves, half contact, proper respect given to a block or strike, etc.). Another way to do the technique is to try to have the opponent's punch hit your elbow. This could result in a hand break, something that sparring wouldn't be able to reflect. Sparring is so important, but not all techniques lend themselves well to being tested during sparring matches.
I didn't mean for this response to go so long. I guess it's because I haven't been on MT for a week.
- This technique is not a Krav technique (at least not from the original Imi Lichtenfeld himself). I have seen Krav do a cover block, but not a both arm cover. There's always a chance that I'm wrong about that, and maybe someone from the Big Four organizations has implemented it. But I don't think Imi included it in his curriculum as it is shown. I learned the technique from Panantukan. Paul Vunak uses a version of it and it is also a part of "gunting" from Filipino boxing.
- I think the way that it is show it is too tight for my taste. The version I use covers the ear and head, with the other hand going and on top of the forearm. It is immediately followed up by a forearm strike to the throat...knees, hammers, etc. Since he is included on this thread, I do like Matt Byers' version of doing a headbutt after the cover (If I remember correctly, he has a technique that does that). It's a hidden headbutt and protects the person doing the headbutt (as it hits with the top of the head and not the forehead.) Most people headbutts incorrectly and risk knocking themselves out...but that's a discussion for another thread.
- I do like that the guy in the video referenced that it is not a "perfect defense." I think in the martial arts we, as experienced MA's, can get a little too technical with techniques and we comment on techniques as if they should be the "absolute end-all". Someone here referenced (I forgot who it was...gp? Tony?) "what happens if they do this? It's a fight. It may happen." I am paraphrasing, but it was a great comment. We all know that not every technique works in every scenario, but some martial artists tend to critique individual techniques as if they are supposed to work in every scenario. Most higher ranking techniques are "counters-to-counters" and may not ever be used in common self defense scenarios. A great technique can be adapted to multiple scenarios, but many techniques are very scenario-specific, and they still have a place.
- Regarding grappling, I was taught a version of the technique in my bjj class. It was a single cover; not a double cover, but it was based on the same principle. I was also taught the same move in my Krav class, but the instructor is also a Gracie student.
- Regarding the technique being "tested in sparring" I think that some techniques don't lend themselves well to sparring. I think some of the videos that were posted show that the technique can be effective in scenario-training, but the effectiveness of an individual technique in sparring can be influenced by what type of sparring is done (tag/point sparring with gloves, half contact, proper respect given to a block or strike, etc.). Another way to do the technique is to try to have the opponent's punch hit your elbow. This could result in a hand break, something that sparring wouldn't be able to reflect. Sparring is so important, but not all techniques lend themselves well to being tested during sparring matches.
I didn't mean for this response to go so long. I guess it's because I haven't been on MT for a week.
I do think this is one of the techniques that doesn't thrive in the often-cautious context of sparring (agreeing with your statement). An opponent carefully working to control distance will make use of the weaknesses in this cover. Someone coming in hard to beat the hell out of you (angry guy you bumped into kind of thing) would be a better scenario for this. There are some situations even in sparring where this might be used, if grappling is part of the mix. My primary objection to it is the tightness and how it restricts the arms. A moderated version would make it easier to instinctively use either one or both arms (depending upon the situation) and transition in and out more smoothly.
