Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[James.H1515]

Yeah. So if both of you are throwing punches and you are also blocking. You are throwing less punches.

My two hands punching vs your one.

Which if you are both standing there just slugging it out becomes important.

Good point

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[Juany118]

Well in my class it's about structure so the way it looks in the form is the way it should be done for example the tan Sao some people only has 2 angles and use it for high strikes coming but that in terms of structure its weaker than 3 angles if a strong punch was coming the 2 angels is more likely to collapse.
What lineage you from?
Also if you don't fight this way what way does it look like?? I know it would be hard to explain but please try I'm want to know.

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Traditional Wing Chun. The basic idea is this. Yes structure is important, DAMN important, as a tool to train BUT the human body is a wonderful thing. As an example, you dont need to have the perfect man sau/wu sau to protect your center. The hands can be clenched, or half open etc. The point is to have your hands and arms in the correct orientation to protect your center. I don't want to lean at my waist into my opponent, begging him to take my head off, but if I move my head out of the way of a strike that I did not intercept, that's okay. I want to use footwork to maintain a proper structure but the purpose of that structure is to maintain my center/balance. That is something you feel. You can not dictate what an opponent will do, you can simply deal with what happens. If you become trapped in the idea of maintaining a perfect stance the unexpected will bite you in the ***. (btw this, sadly, comes from real experience in real fights on the street for too many years, luckily this month signals only 5 more to go).

In short its about adhering to the principles and not getting trapped in the dogma.

 

[Martial D]

Possibly expecting the wrong skill set there? I don't train to write shakespear I train to smash.

Your mind is your most dangerous tool.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is really akward to try to block and punch at the same time. I do it in boxing but it has a limited use. I just cant see combinations coming fast enough to get the positions in time for them to make them work.

Head movement means I can punch with both hands where blocking and punching means I can only punch with one.

Now the sneaky trick with head movement is I can move to where they probably are not going to hit me. And that means I can be moving there before they attack. Rather than seeing a punch working out a defence then seeing the next punch and so on.

There is a whole bunch of really important things like timing and cardio and creating openings that a lot of martial arts do not spend enough time on. Believing that technique is worth more bang for buck.

You get this with the groin kick crowd a lot.

The correct technique for groin kicking probably. I dont know because it doesnt matter that much.

MMA groin kicks which I imagine were not trained and have no specific technique.

And my view is that I will have better results learning to set up any kick rather than train the perfect groin kick. In that I will out groin kick a groin kick specialist.

All of this means that the training they are doing in the top video is time wasting.(mostly)

And why sports fighters are good at fighting in months that take other systems years.

Following up on the groin kick thing. A lot of the teaching I've seen specifically around groin kicks assumes they are fight-enders, and so doesn't include defensive cover in case the technique fails or is ineffective. I saw a video just yesterday of a guy sneaking in a quick groin kick on a police officer, and getting KTFO in response. One groin kick, one quick grunt and a punch in rapid reply. Game over.

Your training almost certainly includes assuming the kick might not remove the guy from the fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One after the other. Not at the same time.

"The old one, two." Pretty common. Maybe the only thing more common is a jab.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fighting in the pocket takes a specialised skill set. I tend to avoid it because I have to take more punches to my head than I would like.

And I like my head the way it is.

We have so e guys who do it and they may win but they always cop a panel beating.

If I'm in there, it's either a mistake, or because I saw an opening to grapple (to stop them hitting me). Don't like it in there, not a bit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then why does the NA head of my lineage of Wing Chun say, "you do not fight this way" when he takes the picture perfect man sau/wu sau pose. I am taught that the forms, the "perfect poses" in the drills are so you get to "feel" how your body should be balanced. You can feel that same balance in other positions that does not look like that picture perfect form. In short the form has nothing to do with how you should "look" when you fight, it's about how you should "feel" when you fight.

I think that's common in a lot of TMA. There's an approach to developing principles that uses specific stances and such, which are exaggerations (IMO) of the principles. They're meant for development, not for fighting - you transition to using those principles (but not the teaching modes) in a fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh sorry I might have misunderstood you when you said
(Head movement means I can punch with both hands where blocking and punching means I can only punch with one)

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I think he meant both are available, whereas when blocking only the one is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Possibly expecting the wrong skill set there? I don't train to write shakespear I train to smash.

Ok, Hulk.

 

[TMA17]

This guy is great...and hilarious.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ He is one of Lyte Burly's teachers (52 Blocks guy).

 

[TMA17]

^^^^ He is one of Lyte Burly's teachers (52 Blocks guy).

I didn’t know that. What be says about WC and martial arts in general makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[drop bear]

Your mind is your most dangerous tool.

Idiots are dangerous.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Idiots are dangerous.

I resemble that remark!

 

[TMA17]

Here is a recent video of. WC guy vs MT. Some WC concepts but notice what the fight ends up looking like.

Thoughts?

 

[KPM]

Billed as "style vs. style"....."Wing Chun vs. Muay Thai." But Wing Chun guy doing high covers, spin kicks and some pretty ineffective chain punches.....and wins by a rear naked choke on the ground! By Wing Chun logic....why didn't we see him charge in, establish a dominant inside position that the opponent couldn't escape from, and finish him off with his devastating WSLVT punch????

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That WC vs. MT clip shows to

- catch your opponent's roundhouse kick and sweep his standing leg.
- choke your opponent's throat from behind in the ground game.

has great value in combat. IMO, all MA systems should train this kind of skill. It should not have any style boundary.

 

[TMA17]

Fighters/human beings are not static. People move around lol. Sure if someone stands still, as often the case drills you see at MA schools you can pull off your Tan Sao and move in or outside and chain punch him. But in the real world it rarely ever plays out like that. This is why, IMO, these fights break down to sloppy boxing when it involves a WC guy. He realizes he has to move and move fast with distances not in optimal range. They have to then resort to other ways of moving and punching themselves due to the lack of mobility and distance control.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

At 14.7, the MT guy throws a right roundhouse kick, instead of moving back, the WC guy moves in, catches the kicking leg, sweeps the standing leg, and takes his opponent down.

This is another good example that if you don't want to fight your opponent from sun raise until sun set, when you opponent moves in, you should take the risk and move in too.

 

[TMA17]

“Many Ving Tsun people don’t know how to fight … They don’t understand how to apply the concepts of Ving Tsun . This means that the students are concentrating too much on the individual technique rather than seeing the whole situation . They cannot appreciate the theory which would suggest a technique.”
Wong Shun Leung

“The other major thing that gives these limited sports martial arts a huge edge over Wing Chun is pure athleticism.”
MMA Fighter