Is this school legit?

[Ken Morgan]

Chaps, the member has all of five posts and think about his username for a second.

I agree with all that you have said but my guess would be that your words will fall on fallow ground.

True Sukerkin, but there are MANY people like this. JSA on youtube provides hours of entertainment.

 

[Chris Parker]

With deference to Sukerins (incredibly accurate) statement in regards to saying anything here...

I think that if you want to learn to use a sword you should try to find a modern style instead of something like Katori Shinto ryu.

So your argument is that if you really want to learn to use a sword, you shouldn't learn from a system that has been teaching and studying the use of the weapon for over 500 years, and which is reknowned for producing some of the greatest and most famous swordsmen Japan has ever known? Instead you should find a "modern" style of swordsmanship? The closest is Shinkendo, which is highly based on Toyama Ryu (a more modern system in itself), which is based on the swordsmanship of me such as Nakayama Hakudo, a swordsman of the Hasagawa Eishin Ryu, as well as Iaido, Jodo, Muso Shinden Ryu, and Shindo Munen Ryu.

If you study Japanese sword styles all you will learn is tradition. There is no practicallity to them.

There is no practical reason to learn sword arts. You do not carry a sword in the street, you will not be attacked by a rival swordsman, it is ludicrous to think otherwise. The reasons for studying swordsmanship are many and varied, but practical self defence just isn't on there.

For someone like me who is banned from owning firearms, swords are the only thing I can use to defend my home.

To begin with, I don't think they're the only thing you can use. There are plenty of other things around, without having the police ask afterwards "Why did you happen to have a sword handy?" forcing you to answer "Well, I'm not allowed a gun (which they will look into, and from the inference here I don't think will look particlarly favourably on you...), so bought it to defend myself!" You won't be looked on as being particularly, well, sane.

I need something more practical.

No you don't. See above.

I came up with my own style and it works and is acknowledged as practical for self defense.

Acknowledged by who? And if you are looking at sword for "realistic self defence" then I'm not acknowledging it as practical for anything, as there is a sense of reality that is desperately lacking.

There are styles like shinkendo that are much better for learning how to use a sword than styles that have a long history.

Shinkendo has it's good points, and has it's shortcomings. But of course you have trained extensively in the older systems to know what is best for learning to use a sword, haven't you?

As said above Shinkendo comes out of the older systems, so it has a real base. I have less confidence in your system, based on the way you are discussing it here.

While I'm here, though, I see on your profile that there is essentially no information about yourself there at all (location, age, experience etc). In fact, the only thing listed is your "Chifuka ryu ninjitsu". I heartily recommend you have something to back up refering to your art with such a name, as there is no way a new Ninjutsu system can be founded (oh, you may notice the spelling there....).

For your perusal, I supply a bit of reading. These may indicate what you are seeming like to us at this point in time.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71727

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72686

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74441

With threads such as asking what would be common knowledge in anyone's area (which you never answered as to what the reason for the thread was... I can only see it as a way to get information about people, or to feed into a fantasy of "infiltrating" somewhere.... hmm), you are coming across as being nothing but fantasy. If you have any real training (in anything!) please let us know, otherwise this is going to go down a rather worn path that I'm just not interested in, and I doubt others here are as well.

 

[Jmyrm]

Chaps, the member has all of five posts and think about his username for a second.

Not sure what your getting at here...?

Posts and videos are nice, but I wanted to see it first hand before asking anymore silly questions.

 

[Ken Morgan]

Not sure what your getting at here...?

Posts and videos are nice, but I wanted to see it first hand before asking anymore silly questions.

No, no, no....Suk isn't talking about you!!
He was refering to a possible, and likely troll (Chifuka-ryu) who posted on this thread!!

 

[Jmyrm]

Oh dear, my apologies sukerkin - thanks for pointing that out ken!

Cheers,
Jmyrm

 

[Chris Parker]

That said, Jmyrm, have you had a chance to visit any of the schools? And if so, what did you think?

 

[Chifuka-ryu]

The whole argument that just because a school is old it is effective has to be a classic logical fallicy. Things do get lost in translation, and after centuries, there is a lot of translation.

Here is a question to ask, how do any of these schools do in sparring? Instead of hiding behind the reputation of someone who lived in the 15th century, how do the current students do against a live opponent?

That is why schools like Nami-ryu started by James Williams are so much superior to anything that tries to cling to tradition.

Even if you reject this argument, how do you expalin the fact that you are promoting the Sugino version of Katori Shinto ryu when the Soke of that style does not recognize them as legitimate teachers of the style?

You are all so willing to fall down and worship an Asian master, but not anyone with darker skin tones.

I'm through with you all.

 

[Jmyrm]

That said, Jmyrm, have you had a chance to visit any of the schools? And if so, what did you think?

I had the opportunity to go out to Guelph for an Iaido and Jodo seminar. Could only make the one day but it was really good to see it first hand. Special thanks goes to Ken - he did alot of explaining to me inbetween kata and during the sensei demonstrations. Also introduced me to the instructor of one of the schools, which i will be visiting next weekend!

I did want to speak to Ken before going around the schools, it was certainly different than I expected - he cleared out a lot of nagging doubts and questions about what was out there. I thought it was very engaging, it certainly wasn't boring - especially when ken sent the other chap's sword flying in Jodo (twice)! But it's to difficult to say, I only caught a glimpse of what is a lifelong discipline, one session isn't enough to make a judgment. I am looking forward to participating, I believe that is the only way to see if both mind and body are engaged and interested.
As for schools, I definately liked the atmosphere of the Guelph location - the only reservation is the distance.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I think that if you want to learn to use a sword you should try to find a modern style instead of something like Katori Shinto ryu. If you study Japanese sword styles all you will learn is tradition. There is no practicallity to them.

Translation: "I don't understand those traditional styles, and they are hard, so I call them bad.

For someone like me who is banned from owning firearms, swords are the only thing I can use to defend my home.

Translation: "I have a criminal record."

I need something more practical. I came up with my own style and it works and is acknowledged as practical for self defense.

Translation: "I think it's cool to attack watermellons while on roller skates. My training is leet dog yo! All my hommies think its da bomb diddy!"

There are styles like shinkendo that are much better for learning how to use a sword than styles that have a long history.

Translation: "They be hard n dat yo. I gots no time fo fos."

 

[The Last Legionary]

The whole argument that just because a school is old it is effective has to be a classic logical fallicy. Things do get lost in translation, and after centuries, there is a lot of translation.

Here is a question to ask, how do any of these schools do in sparring? Instead of hiding behind the reputation of someone who lived in the 15th century, how do the current students do against a live opponent?

That is why schools like Nami-ryu started by James Williams are so much superior to anything that tries to cling to tradition.

Even if you reject this argument, how do you expalin the fact that you are promoting the Sugino version of Katori Shinto ryu when the Soke of that style does not recognize them as legitimate teachers of the style?

You are all so willing to fall down and worship an Asian master, but not anyone with darker skin tones.

I'm through with you all.

Translation: "You done made my make believe fantasy art sound bad. You're all poopy heads and I'll call you racists too because that's my fall back card to play when its obvious how lame I am. "

 

[The Last Legionary]

Sparing isn't a real fight. If you had a clue, you'd know that.

 

[Tanaka]

I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's assinine! I see that written all the time from kids that want to think that they're some sort of living anime character, and it just makes me cringe every time! A sword is right down there near the bottom on ways to "defend your home". Best home defense that isn't a firearm is a dog. Following that is a club of some sort. Defending your home with a sword is simply a B.S. excuse to swing your sword around pretending like you've some idea what you're doing. Mind you, there's nothing at all wrong with going in the back yard and swinging your sword around however you like. As long as you're careful, it's good exercise and lots of fun. Don't delude yourself in to thinking you're actually learning much of anything.
I've got one of those "I've already taught myself the sword" people in my class right now. He was quite embarrassed when he found out how little he actually knew, and how wrong he was about how to actually use a sword.

OK, I'll hop off the soap box now.

Although I like what you said.
I think a better home defense would be(Since I worked in this field)

1)Home Security System
2)Motion Lights
3)Weapon(Firearm, Sword, Taser, or etc)
4)Then perhaps a Dog if that's what you want a Dog for.

I see my Dog more as a companion than for defending me. Also I think there was a case recently where a man defended his garage with a sword. It ended up being a lethal situation for the robber(who had many previous burglaries on his record)
The reason this caused so much controversy was because he used a lethal weapon in his garage(and killed someone)... not in his home.
I'm not sure if he won this case, and is free to go or not though.

If you do use a sword for your defense... You better be aware of the consequences legally, mentally, and physically(If they have a gun).

 

[jks9199]

The whole argument that just because a school is old it is effective has to be a classic logical fallicy. Things do get lost in translation, and after centuries, there is a lot of translation.

Here is a question to ask, how do any of these schools do in sparring? Instead of hiding behind the reputation of someone who lived in the 15th century, how do the current students do against a live opponent?

That is why schools like Nami-ryu started by James Williams are so much superior to anything that tries to cling to tradition.

Even if you reject this argument, how do you expalin the fact that you are promoting the Sugino version of Katori Shinto ryu when the Soke of that style does not recognize them as legitimate teachers of the style?

You are all so willing to fall down and worship an Asian master, but not anyone with darker skin tones.

I'm through with you all.

Wow! Where did any of that come from?

Dude, you start by asking a few flaky questions, and dodge anyone asking you for information. Then you tell us how you invented your own sword system...

And somehow, you found a racial basis in this. Don't know how to tell you this -- but, from where I sit, you're a a white background and black letters. That's all I know about you.

You ain't likely to get people supporting your ideas when you don't share them.

Oh, and, just so you know, regarding the various x-kan arts (those descended from Takamatsu or Hatsumi)... There are a number of people who have put that training to the test in the reality of modern combat, with more than a little success. Sparring is NOT the same as fighting.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I had the opportunity to go out to Guelph for an Iaido and Jodo seminar. Could only make the one day but it was really good to see it first hand. Special thanks goes to Ken - he did alot of explaining to me inbetween kata and during the sensei demonstrations. Also introduced me to the instructor of one of the schools, which i will be visiting next weekend!

I did want to speak to Ken before going around the schools, it was certainly different than I expected - he cleared out a lot of nagging doubts and questions about what was out there. I thought it was very engaging, it certainly wasn't boring - especially when ken sent the other chap's sword flying in Jodo (twice)! But it's to difficult to say, I only caught a glimpse of what is a lifelong discipline, one session isn't enough to make a judgment. I am looking forward to participating, I believe that is the only way to see if both mind and body are engaged and interested.
As for schools, I definately liked the atmosphere of the Guelph location - the only reservation is the distance.

Of everyone who expresses an interest in the JSA, very few will come out and look, and even fewer will start with a school, IMO you've already gone past what most people would have done.

There is no rule, at least within the Kendo federation, that says you must stay with X instructor until you die, you can practice with other sensei's. Beginning with Ohmi Sensei @ JCCC is, again IMO, a great way to begin your JSA career. In a year you may wish to change for various reasons, but he will give you a great base from which to work from. Your group can and will become very much like a family, other clubs become like extended family. Too bad you didn't hang around Sunday night, people from 20 clubs, eating, drinking and watching old MA video's/photo's and chatting till 1:30 in the morning. Maybe next year for you??

It was nice to meet you, and I hope to see you around! Again pop out to Guelph anytime you want, email me before hand to make sure we're practicing on a given night.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh boy. You really want to try this?

The whole argument that just because a school is old it is effective has to be a classic logical fallicy. Things do get lost in translation, and after centuries, there is a lot of translation.

So it's a logical fallicy to think that a system for using weapons that came directly out of a time when the use of such weapons was commonplace and essential for the survival of the art would be effective in it's methods, however to believe that a new system, removed from the need for effectiveness, removed from actual use in lethal application, removed from real testing in this sense, is more likely to be effective in it's use of old weapons no longer common or encountered? Right....

Here is a question to ask, how do any of these schools do in sparring? Instead of hiding behind the reputation of someone who lived in the 15th century, how do the current students do against a live opponent?

Sparring? Frankly, probably not very well. But then again, put a real sword in the hands of a classically-trained kenjutsuka versus a kendoka (sport), and I'm backing the kenjutsuka every time. And there are many reasons for this including the fact that sparring is very removed from the reality of actual combat, promotes dangerous ideas, and tends towards ineffective alterations in technique. Just so you know.

To demonstrate, the last recorded seppuku in Japan was the famous author (and militant right-wing activist) Mishima Yukio. Mishima was an exponent of Kendo, and quite talented in the sport. When an attempted military coup didn't go well, rather than face the ignomy of being imprisoned, Mishima chose to end his own life with the Samurai ritual suicide of seppuku. Most people know of this act as hara-kiri (literally belly cut, although this is a rather vulgar term), and know that it involves cutting into your own belly with a blade, but not as many realise that there is a second person involved. This person, known as a kaishakunin, gives a great mercy by decapitating the person performing the act, saving an indignified end writhing and screaming.

For Mishima, he had as his kaishakunin a member of his group ( Tatenokai - Shield Society) who held a 4th dan in Kendo (from memory), named Morita Masakatsu. Morita, however, despite his experience, could not perform the decapitation, and after three attempts (during which he ben the blade of his sword about 30 degrees), he gave over to another member (Koga Hiroyasu) to finish the job. So Kendo simply didn't teach Morita to be able to cut properly under the stress of such an event, although he was very good at sparring.

Finally, I don't think you get what the training is really about, if all you are concerned with is "How do you handle a real opponent?" If you really think that is what the sword arts are about, there is no way your system could have much to offer in my opinion.

That is why schools like Nami-ryu started by James Williams are so much superior to anything that tries to cling to tradition.

Well, James is quite well-versed in Traditional arts first and foremost, and keeps a fair bit of that in his training and Nami Ryu. I don't know that it's superior to anything, though (that's not saying it isn't good, just that it isn't superior to classical systems). And as far as his Nami Ryu is, well it's basically his interpretation of what he was taught, and the basis for that goes back to classical systems. Still haven't heard what you base your one on...

Even if you reject this argument, how do you expalin the fact that you are promoting the Sugino version of Katori Shinto ryu when the Soke of that style does not recognize them as legitimate teachers of the style?

Simply, the Sugino Dojo are the ones that are within reach for the poster, rather than us choosing them for him. But you are slightly behind the times there, I feel... Sugino Yukihiro has been training with Otake Sensei, and the Sugino members are being brought into the mainline again, being offered the opportunity to take keppan if they go to train with Otake Sensei. But I really should point out a common misconception here: Otake Sensei is NOT the Soke for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, that would be Iizasa Shuri-no-suke Yasusade, the 20th Generation direct decendant of Iizasa Choisai Ienao, the founder of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shino Ryu.

And just in case you thought there was no relationship between the Sugino group and Iizasa Soke.....

http://www.kakudokan.no/gfx/ksr_soke.jpg (Soke Iizasa Yasusade and Sugino Yoshio Shihan)

and....

http://www.bushinkan.ch/attachments/Image/0shibu-accueil1.jpg (Soke Iizasa Yasusade and Sugino Yukihiro Sensei - Sugino Yoshio's son and now Dojo-cho of the Sugino Dojo)

You are all so willing to fall down and worship an Asian master, but not anyone with darker skin tones.

I don't see any falling down, nor worshiping here... but frankly, if you want to know and understand the Japanese sword, Japan will feature in the journey at some point. If you think that it won't, you aren't looking at this realistically. It's a Japanese sword, for crying out loud!

As to the second half of this comment, it's so ludicrous I'm not going to bother dealing with it.... suffice to say that it does scream of the old calls of Ronald Duncan whenever he was asked to produce any proof that he had any training in anything even closely relating to Ninjutsu whatsoever. It was not uncommon to hear him and his supporters say "Oh, you're just saying that because of his skin colour!" Er, no, because there is no evidence of any legitimacy whatsoever. In any colour.

Interesting link here, Duncan for a while claimed that he studied a number of Koga Ninjutsu sources.... including Katori Shinto Ryu! Hmm, maybe he should have thought about that one a bit more....

I'm through with you all.

Really? Just like that? Hmm, you didn't have anything you actually wanted to say then, just come in here, show no knowledge, try to stir things up with what seems like willful ignorance, and when called on it, you don't engage in any discussion, give anything to support yourself, instead, "you're through with us all"? Okay....

Now that that's done, on to the good stuff.....

I had the opportunity to go out to Guelph for an Iaido and Jodo seminar. Could only make the one day but it was really good to see it first hand. Special thanks goes to Ken - he did alot of explaining to me inbetween kata and during the sensei demonstrations. Also introduced me to the instructor of one of the schools, which i will be visiting next weekend!

Sounds brilliant! One of my sadnesses is that I'm trapped all the way down here in Melbourne, I would love to get out and do some training with guys like Ken, pgsmith, et al. Fantastic!

I did want to speak to Ken before going around the schools, it was certainly different than I expected - he cleared out a lot of nagging doubts and questions about what was out there. I thought it was very engaging, it certainly wasn't boring - especially when ken sent the other chap's sword flying in Jodo (twice)! But it's to difficult to say, I only caught a glimpse of what is a lifelong discipline, one session isn't enough to make a judgment. I am looking forward to participating, I believe that is the only way to see if both mind and body are engaged and interested.
As for schools, I definately liked the atmosphere of the Guelph location - the only reservation is the distance.

Ha, yeah, that first taste is to get you hooked... Let us know how you go with the schools (which one was it, by the way, the HNIR one or one of the TSKSR ones?), honestly distance would be the least of my worries! I'm looking at possibly making treks across the country (pretty much the equivalent of going from one side of the continental US to the other) semi-regularly for a small chance at a training experience, I travel for a few hours each week to teach and train, honestly I'd love to be in your position there!

Keep us updated!

 

[Langenschwert]

Oh dear. Again.

The whole argument that just because a school is old it is effective has to be a classic logical fallicy. Things do get lost in translation, and after centuries, there is a lot of translation.

Possible. But that doesn't mean anything you or I would come up with would be better, or even half as functional as any hypothetical watered-down sword art.

Here is a question to ask, how do any of these schools do in sparring? Instead of hiding behind the reputation of someone who lived in the 15th century, how do the current students do against a live opponent?

Sparring is not combat. It is a tool, nothing more. One that I think is useful, and is done in most HEMA schools. However even historically, it was debated whether sparring helped combat effectiveness or not. And those were people who fought for real! Sparring is nothing like combat at all when you get right down to it. Look at Aldo Nadi's famous duel, where the finest epeeist of his day has his technique fall to pieces in a real duel with sharp epees. He still won, but sparring and competing at the highest levels didn't truly prepapre him for the reality of combat.

That is why schools like Nami-ryu started by James Williams are so much superior to anything that tries to cling to tradition.

See above.

You are all so willing to fall down and worship an Asian master, but not anyone with darker skin tones.

What the hell? I don't fall down and worship any Asian master. The art I've done most is European. Who the hell cares what skin colour a swordsman is? To quote the manuscript I mentioned earlier in this thread: "There is but one art of the sword".

The test of a sword art for combat isn't whether people spar or don't spar or whether is Japanese or European or Arabic or what colour the teacher or founder is. The test of the art is this: Does the art follow the universal principles of swordsmanship? If not, there could be a problem. But it depends on the goal of the art. If the goal has nothing to do with the practical application of swordsmanship, then it's not an issue. Modern sport fencing is a good example. While they spar lots, many of the techniques are downright suicidal in a real duel. The goal is to win a game, not survive a duel.

I'm through with you all.

Indeed. Be careful or you might learn something.

Regards,

-Mark

 

[Ken Morgan]

Nami-ryu....

Please tell me you're kidding me?? Suk, you are correct IMO, a troll....but man, the bait!!

"A wave of energy through his body." That phrase alone tells me all I need to know about the school. I won't even get into my opinion of his stance, his balance, his grip or which part of the sword he is cutting with.

 

[Sukerkin]

As ever with such bad things, it is best just to allow them to fade from memory lest they take root and moulder .

 

[ludde]

Even if you reject this argument, how do you expalin the fact that you are promoting the Sugino version of Katori Shinto ryu when the Soke of that style does not recognize them as legitimate teachers of the style?

I havent heard about what Cris Parker is writing about Sugino Yukihiro training under Otake Risuke. But Shurinosuke Yasusada Iizasa is clearly confirming Sugino dojo's participation in Katori shinto ryu. And also, Soke participatet in Sugino dojos 80th anniversary.


Post nr: 5
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93308&highlight=katori+shinto+ryu+soke

 

[Jmyrm]

Blah - got sick last weekend. Be at the JCCC on thursday.

I'll be emailing kim for the wooden equipment shortly as well!

The KSR school downtown has practices exactly on my squash nights - which means I can only get to one a week (the one night is on/off at the racket club).

Thanks again everyone for your input. More updates as they happen, ill be referring to this thread often as I learn more... alot of info in here!

Jmyrm