Is this school legit?

[Jmyrm]

Hey everyone,

I was thinking of going here to view a class, its very close to where I live which makes it very convenient (and enroute home from campus). Can I impose on someone with more knowledge to advise me on whether this place is a legitimate school?

Found using a simple google search for "kenjutsu toronto"
http://www.torontokenjutsu.com/Welcome.php

EDIT*: Also found these two, again all advise/help/comments appreciated!
http://www.toronto-nitenkai.org/index.html
http://dragonfencing.com/kenjutsu.html

Much appreciated,
Jmyrm

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

These all seem very legit to me. The schools are koryu systems (old school Japanese arts), which I must say are not for everyone. Watch a class and figure out if it really is for you.

Two of the groups you linked are both teaching the same system (and the same branch), being Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu under the Sugino Dojo, the other is Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. I'm not sure what you know about both, so I'll attempt to fill in some details, which may give you a taste of what you will find there.

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is possibly the most respected of all the Japanese Classical systems, and is a sogo bujutsu ryuha, or composite martial system. It teaches a range of weapons and other aspects, focused primarily on the sword (the other weapons are learned with the concept of knowing how to handle them when you, as a swordsman, face them), but also covering short sword (kodachi), two swords (ryoto), bojutsu (staff), naginatajutsu (a Japanese halberd-like weapon), sojutsu (spear), and at higher levels shurikenjutsu (throwing spikes), and a jujutsu syllabus (refered to as yawaragei). It also has a high emphasis on other teachings, such as strategy, castle fortification and design, spiritual concepts (including kuji), and more. It really is a lifetimes study and more.

Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu is the sword art left by Musashi Miyamoto (Shinmen Miyamoto Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshin to give him his full title in the ryu), and is focused on the strategy of swordsmanship. It is comprised of three sections of swordsmanship, Itto Seiho (techniques for using a single long sword), Kodachi Seiho (techniques for using a short sword), and Nito Seiho (techniques for using two swords). For the record, although best known for his use of two swords Musashi was said to only really have used them in a situation against a group, and the Nito Seiho is the shortest of each of the sections. At higher levels there are sections of bojutsu, jutte, aikuchi (a form of dagger) and jujutsu.

I have some experience with HNIR, and have long been interested in TSKSR, I would love to study it. But I recommend picking one, and one only (particularly for the immediate future). So visit them all, and pick the school (and teacher) that speaks to you the most. You may find it's not the system that's such an important thing.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I agree with Chris.
I've trained with Imai and Iwami sensei both, drank with them and had dinner with them. They are/were normal people, no magic light granting knowledge. Don't get caught up in the marketing fluff.
I do not know these groups. Though by looking around I'm sure you can find a lower cost group compared to some.
What school? Which part of TO are you in?

 

[Chris Parker]

I don't know the schools themselves, but I have come across both Doug Tong's and Corey Reid's names before, although that is not an endorsement of them, merely stating that I have heard the names. I say it can't hurt to check them out. I'd love to have TSKSR here....

 

[Ken Morgan]

If you stay in the JSA for any length of time one thing you will realize is that, it is all the same.
It doesn't matter the school, you move a certain way, you hold the sword a certain way, and you cut a certain way. Once you have been training for a number of years, you will be able to "pick-up" any JSA school very quickly.
When you first start off learning the basics, its all new and cool, and the one thing everyone does, is collect kata and collect schools. Kim Taylor at one time could do well over 300 kata from at least 6 schools, right now i can probably do 150+ from 4 or 5 schools. Then you grow out of that when you realize that its all the same.

 

[pgsmith]

If you stay in the JSA for any length of time one thing you will realize is that, it is all the same.

Not the way I do it! In fact, I've had more than one menkyo kaiden say to me "What the heck was that?"

 

[Sukerkin]

ROFLKLITA! Much kudos for that, Mr. Smith .

Puts me in mind of an aside chucked at me by my sensei a while back when I was modestly proclaiming to my fellows that I was quite poor at the particular kata we were performing ... "Just the one?" he quipped sardonically :lol:.

 

[Sukerkin]

If Jmyrm opts to go into either the Katori or the Niten school in his area I think he'll probably find that which he is looking for.

It's worth mentioning costs again tho. A true koryu school will not be charging a fortune for tuition but they will very probably be very interested in seeing what you are like as a person before committing to training you. Also, Iai or any of the sword arts can get pretty expensive in terms of the value of the swords and other weapons. In the early period, bokken {wooden weapons} will suffice but once you decide to carry on with your studies you will need to get an iaito {practice sword} at a bare minimum. That can be a cost of several hundred dollars, so you need to be sure that this interest is not a 'passing fancy' before you truly get started.

 

[Jmyrm]

I agree with Chris.
I've trained with Imai and Iwami sensei both, drank with them and had dinner with them. They are/were normal people, no magic light granting knowledge. Don't get caught up in the marketing fluff.
I do not know these groups. Though by looking around I'm sure you can find a lower cost group compared to some.
What school? Which part of TO are you in?

I'm at the UofT St.George campus, I live about 15-20min north by ttc.

Thanks again to everyone who has posted, I'm greatful for the advice and time you've given me. Things are much clearer now! I'll be contacting these schools and take the hour commute to Guelph next week. I'll post back here more of what I learn about them And what they say before I finally make a decision.

 

[Langenschwert]

If you stay in the JSA for any length of time one thing you will realize is that, it is all the same.

Ain't that the truth. I do both Niten and Johannes Liechtenauer's Kunst des Fechtens. Two martial arts separated by thousands of miles, and it's still largely the same. The more I practice German longsword, the better my Niten gets. The more I practice Niten, the better my German longsword gets.

Now if only I could be actually "good" at either.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[Chris Parker]

I don't know, I tend to thrive on the subtleties....

I agree that they are similar enough to make transitioning relatively easy, but they will all have certain aspects that seperate them. For example, Seitei Iaido tends towards big movements, and large circles with your shoulders, whereas the Iai portion of Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu is more direct and tight, so if you perform the TSKSR kata like Seitei Iaido, you've missed the point of Iai in TSKSR. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu has no iai section at all, featuring only a formal method of drawing both swords for the Nito Seiho, and they also tend towards tighter actions rather than the bigger actions.

Each will give you the same benefits, though, which when we are looking at swordsmanship, are not really related to self defence, or realistic combative abilities. Instead, the benefits are more focused on aspects of attitude and mindset, but the way they instill these aspects will usually be the determining detail when looking just at different styles. For example, using the systems given, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu has it's entire syllabus taught through paired kata, within a realistic distance (or even closer) for the most part. You continually train these kata with your partners, increasing the speed and power, until it's done at a true combat speed and intensity, and thereby forcing you to focus your concentration in the moment. The primary idea is that you never move out of the combative situation until it's over. I have been told more than once that (probably due to my other training) I "like to live dangerously" in terms of how late I leave my evasions and so on.

Within Katori Shinto Ryu, the techniques are much longer and are actually done out of actual conbative distance, in order to allow the kata to be lengthened, and other training devices put in (such as substituting a "blocking" sword for the actual body target you would be cutting or striking, only after training for a while do you get introduced to the actual applications of the techniques you are performing). The techniques are again predominantly paired kata, with the Iai sections and shurikenjutsu being solo. Again, by training the kata with more and more intensity, you are forced to focus your mind and attention to the moment, as if you lose focus or attention for a moment, a bokken to the head is rather an uncomfortable wake-up call. But at least it's better than sharpened steel....

Seitei Iaido is trained solo, and here the mind is again forced to focus on the moment. However, it is not due to another partner who may bean you on the head, but rather in the attempt to get every movement as perfect as possible, constantly refined and polished.

There are then other systems which also have their own peculiarities, such as Tatsumi Ryu, who have a unique method of nukiuchi involving turning the sword upside down first, drawing in a manner more similar to a tachi rather than a katana, showing it's origins. They also have a different method of holding the sword in place, typically most systems, such as Seitei Iaido hold the sword in it's saya (scabbard) with the thumb over the tsuba, but the Tatsumi Ryu holds the tsuba from below with your index finger. Interestingly, Katori Shinto Ryu is actually halfway between the two, with the index finger being used to pull the sword back into the saya and hold it into place, while the thumb rests behind the tsuba, pushing forward to break the seal of the habaki when drawing.

So, really, it's all the same except where it's different!




Small disclaimer here: These opinions are my interpretation based on my emic and etic research and study of various systems, and how I see the value of the teachings. Others may differ, and we may all be correct.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I don't know, I tend to thrive on the subtleties....

I agree that they are similar enough to make transitioning relatively easy, but they will all have certain aspects that seperate them. For example, Seitei Iaido tends towards big movements, and large circles with your shoulders, whereas the Iai portion of Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu is more direct and tight, so if you perform the TSKSR kata like Seitei Iaido, you've missed the point of Iai in TSKSR. Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu has no iai section at all, featuring only a formal method of drawing both swords for the Nito Seiho, and they also tend towards tighter actions rather than the bigger actions.

Each will give you the same benefits, though, which when we are looking at swordsmanship, are not really related to self defence, or realistic combative abilities. Instead, the benefits are more focused on aspects of attitude and mindset, but the way they instill these aspects will usually be the determining detail when looking just at different styles. For example, using the systems given, Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu has it's entire syllabus taught through paired kata, within a realistic distance (or even closer) for the most part. You continually train these kata with your partners, increasing the speed and power, until it's done at a true combat speed and intensity, and thereby forcing you to focus your concentration in the moment. The primary idea is that you never move out of the combative situation until it's over. I have been told more than once that (probably due to my other training) I "like to live dangerously" in terms of how late I leave my evasions and so on.

Within Katori Shinto Ryu, the techniques are much longer and are actually done out of actual conbative distance, in order to allow the kata to be lengthened, and other training devices put in (such as substituting a "blocking" sword for the actual body target you would be cutting or striking, only after training for a while do you get introduced to the actual applications of the techniques you are performing). The techniques are again predominantly paired kata, with the Iai sections and shurikenjutsu being solo. Again, by training the kata with more and more intensity, you are forced to focus your mind and attention to the moment, as if you lose focus or attention for a moment, a bokken to the head is rather an uncomfortable wake-up call. But at least it's better than sharpened steel....

Seitei Iaido is trained solo, and here the mind is again forced to focus on the moment. However, it is not due to another partner who may bean you on the head, but rather in the attempt to get every movement as perfect as possible, constantly refined and polished.

There are then other systems which also have their own peculiarities, such as Tatsumi Ryu, who have a unique method of nukiuchi involving turning the sword upside down first, drawing in a manner more similar to a tachi rather than a katana, showing it's origins. They also have a different method of holding the sword in place, typically most systems, such as Seitei Iaido hold the sword in it's saya (scabbard) with the thumb over the tsuba, but the Tatsumi Ryu holds the tsuba from below with your index finger. Interestingly, Katori Shinto Ryu is actually halfway between the two, with the index finger being used to pull the sword back into the saya and hold it into place, while the thumb rests behind the tsuba, pushing forward to break the seal of the habaki when drawing.

So, really, it's all the same except where it's different!




Small disclaimer here: These opinions are my interpretation based on my emic and etic research and study of various systems, and how I see the value of the teachings. Others may differ, and we may all be correct.

Chris you always think about this stuff waaayyyyy too much, why aren't you at practice right now???

In MJER, MSR, Seitei & Koryu Jodo, seitei iai, niten, KSR, and a few schools I don't even remember now, you move the same way. Yes the colour of the paint on the car my be different, it may have some really cool frilly parts, but its still just a car that will get you from point A to point B.

 

[Chris Parker]

Honestly, my friend, it's past 11.00pm here right now, so it's time to be home.... besides, wasn't there a call for this section to be populated by more than just you, Sukerin, Langenschwert, and pgsmith? Just trying to help....

But to let you know, I'm typically swinging a sword around my living room, or going through my taijutsu practice, or playing one of my guitars while I'm posting here. This is part of the mental side of my approach to the arts....

I agree that movement is so similar as to be considered the same (although not exactly), but my point was more that the approach differs from school to school. I'm really not surprised that systems such as koryu jodo (Shinto Muso Ryu) and Seitei Jodo move the same... they're the same art! Shimizu Takaji, 25th "unofficial" head of SMR developed Seitei Jodo for the ZNKR, taking the 12 kihon and 10 out of the 12 kata straight out of SMR Jodo (with a few small modifications for simplicity, from what I understand), and created 2 new ones specifically for the new system. A number of SMR dojos require that the Seitei Jodo is learnt first, I believe. Although even there there is a slight difference in posture and movement I'm told.

By the same token, MJER and MSR, among others, went into the make up of Seitei Iaido. I would still say that Katori Shinto Ryu's Iai and Battojutsu kata are done with a different movement to Seitei Iai, a little more direct and a fair bit tighter. I may even say a bit more dynamic, as well, but that as with the rest is just a difference, not better or worse.

Essentially, yes, they are all going to do basically the same thing (from A to B), but to say they are all the same is a little to general for me. One person can make them all the same, but that's not quite the same thing. After all, the different schools don't even agree on how to grip a sword, HNIR has a slightly different grip to the Kukishinden I was taught, which is a little different to the way I was taught for Tameshigiri when I visited some Shinkendo guys, and they are different again to the proper grip taught in TSKSR.

But, yeah, I probably do think about these things too much.... time to pick up my sword again...

 

[Ken Morgan]

forest - trees
trees - forest

 

[pgsmith]

I see both points of view, and they are both correct. All of the sword arts are the same for someone, such as the original poster, asking "which of these schools are better for learning the sword?" If all of the schools are legitimate, it comes down to which dojo and instructor feels better to you personally. You'll get all the benefits and knowledge the sword arts has to offer the same in each school, therefore they are all the same. But, each school will be different in how they approach and pass on the knowledge of the school. Each will have a bit different philosophy and method of movement. Therefore they are all different.

 

[Chifuka-ryu]

I think that if you want to learn to use a sword you should try to find a modern style instead of something like Katori Shinto ryu. If you study Japanese sword styles all you will learn is tradition. There is no practicallity to them. For someone like me who is banned from owning firearms, swords are the only thing I can use to defend my home. I need something more practical. I came up with my own style and it works and is acknowledged as practical for self defense.

There are styles like shinkendo that are much better for learning how to use a sword than styles that have a long history.

 

[Langenschwert]

I came up with my own style and it works

Oh dear.

What I hope you mean is "I have an extensive knowledge of various sword arts, having trained in them rigorously for decades. I have now synthesized what I feel is important into a good cirriculum" If not, then that's a big red flag.

What do you feel is a "modern" sword art? Sword arts that were created by people who've never had to use a sword in earnest combat? Sounds sketchy to me if your goal is combat effectiveness. The reality of edged weapon combat is far-removed from the training hall. Adrenaline dump, tunnel vision and sheer panic will reduce what you can do "for real" from what you can do in the salle/dojo. Sword arts founded by people who've actually faced lethal combat with swords have the advantage there.

One also has to consider the context the sword art is developed for. Is it a duel? A battlefield? Urban pacification? Self-improvement?

Making up a new sword art has its pitfalls. To quote the German manuscript HS 3227a:

"Many Masters of play fighting [Leychmeistere]
say that they themselves have thought out
a new art of fencing that they improve from
day to day. But I would like to see one who
could think up a fencing move or a strike
which does not come from Liechtenauer’s
art."​

If you make up a "new" sword art, and it's good then it's a rehash of an old one. Bladed combat is millenia old and its principles are universal. If so why bother? If it isn't a rehash of an old sword art then it's likely nonsense.​

Best regards,​

-Mark​

 

[pgsmith]

For someone like me who is banned from owning firearms, swords are the only thing I can use to defend my home.I need something more practical. I came up with my own style and it works and is acknowledged as practical for self defense.

I'm sorry to be blunt, but that's assinine! I see that written all the time from kids that want to think that they're some sort of living anime character, and it just makes me cringe every time! A sword is right down there near the bottom on ways to "defend your home". Best home defense that isn't a firearm is a dog. Following that is a club of some sort. Defending your home with a sword is simply a B.S. excuse to swing your sword around pretending like you've some idea what you're doing. Mind you, there's nothing at all wrong with going in the back yard and swinging your sword around however you like. As long as you're careful, it's good exercise and lots of fun. Don't delude yourself in to thinking you're actually learning much of anything.
I've got one of those "I've already taught myself the sword" people in my class right now. He was quite embarrassed when he found out how little he actually knew, and how wrong he was about how to actually use a sword.

OK, I'll hop off the soap box now.

 

[Ken Morgan]

I think that if you want to learn to use a sword you should try to find a modern style instead of something like Katori Shinto ryu. If you study Japanese sword styles all you will learn is tradition. There is no practicallity to them. For someone like me who is banned from owning firearms, swords are the only thing I can use to defend my home. I need something more practical. I came up with my own style and it works and is acknowledged as practical for self defense.

There are styles like shinkendo that are much better for learning how to use a sword than styles that have a long history.

Banned from owning firearms?? I’m not even going to ask…..

I’ve been a student of JSA for 11 years and I have learned some traditions, but they are a very small part of what the JSA are about.

The traditional JSA have been around for 400+ years for one reason and one reason only, because they work. People are not stupid, if a particular style of sword does not work, it gets changed or it dies out. Its that simple.

You made up your own style that works? How do you know it works?

 

[Sukerkin]

Chaps, the member has all of five posts and think about his username for a second.

I agree with all that you have said but my guess would be that your words will fall on fallow ground.