Oh good, let me make introductions.
Allen, Robert.... Robert, Allen.
Wait, you've met????
Lamont
Allen, Robert.... Robert, Allen.
Wait, you've met????
Lamont
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #43
Sorry, but I don't see most of this thread as having much of anything to do with the patches and their analysis. It's a political discussion, and it started out with throwing rocks at Bob Jones for whatever reason.
One of the signs that it's not about what it claims to be about is some of the absurdity. I mean, a poster actually suggested that it was plagiaristic to have used a dragon as part of a patch! fer cryin' out loud, if that's true, then we're ALL plagiarists and Mr. Parker too. How long have dragons been used in the representation of martial arts?
I will rhetorically bet a shiny new nickel that every single martial arts patch anybody's ever seen borrows from somewhere. Ah...KenpoChristians...they stole that cross!
If we really want to study the patches, I can show you how. (Sorry, really) It's a) a structuralist question comparable to various analyses of myths--see Vladimir Propp, "The Morphology of the Folk-Tale," as one example, b) a psychoanalytic question, in which aspects of the patch and their usages would be discussed for their...well, you know...and their military connotations, and why they mean anything to us c) an economic question, in which we discuss the production and sale of patches treated as trademarks, d) a historical question, in which we discuss the evolution of martial arts insignia generally, e) the question of originality in kenpo as a whole.
Otherwise, and again I sorta apologize, it's politics. Call it that and have at it.
VERY funny Blindside crack by the way. Nice one.
One of the signs that it's not about what it claims to be about is some of the absurdity. I mean, a poster actually suggested that it was plagiaristic to have used a dragon as part of a patch! fer cryin' out loud, if that's true, then we're ALL plagiarists and Mr. Parker too. How long have dragons been used in the representation of martial arts?
I will rhetorically bet a shiny new nickel that every single martial arts patch anybody's ever seen borrows from somewhere. Ah...KenpoChristians...they stole that cross!
If we really want to study the patches, I can show you how. (Sorry, really) It's a) a structuralist question comparable to various analyses of myths--see Vladimir Propp, "The Morphology of the Folk-Tale," as one example, b) a psychoanalytic question, in which aspects of the patch and their usages would be discussed for their...well, you know...and their military connotations, and why they mean anything to us c) an economic question, in which we discuss the production and sale of patches treated as trademarks, d) a historical question, in which we discuss the evolution of martial arts insignia generally, e) the question of originality in kenpo as a whole.
Otherwise, and again I sorta apologize, it's politics. Call it that and have at it.
VERY funny Blindside crack by the way. Nice one.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Uh, it is possible to do a Kenpo patch that doesn't have a dragon or tiger or the universal pattern (see my vintage '70s USNKA patch as my avatar). But, all the really cool patches do have the common elements of the dragon, tiger, universal pattern.
Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Flattery is not plagarism. Immitation becomes copyright infringement when it creates confusion in the consumers' minds about which is the authentic work or fools the consumer into thinking they are getting a certain product from a certain organization when they are actually getting a different product from a different organization.
If we go down the path of copyright infringement between Kenpo organizations, then all but one organization could be forced to alter the names and contents of their concepts, forms and techniques. Then you would have...the Kenpo subsystem I studed where we do most of the same techniques but call them all by different names.
Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Flattery is not plagarism. Immitation becomes copyright infringement when it creates confusion in the consumers' minds about which is the authentic work or fools the consumer into thinking they are getting a certain product from a certain organization when they are actually getting a different product from a different organization.
If we go down the path of copyright infringement between Kenpo organizations, then all but one organization could be forced to alter the names and contents of their concepts, forms and techniques. Then you would have...the Kenpo subsystem I studed where we do most of the same techniques but call them all by different names.
If you venture outside the Kenpo world you will find that it is very common to find similar patch designs in the same styles. It is a sign of respect for the systems first founder/organization.
In many Shotokan organizations their patch will contain the Shotokan "Rising Sun" symbol, or the "Shotokan Tiger" (yes they use a tiger too) symbol in their patches.
In Goju Ryu you will see the "fist" design in various organizational patches.
In Kajukenbo, most patches have "Emperado's clover" design or the "Kajukenbo Coat of Arms" design in them.
In these systems and many, many more, this is a showing of respect and recognition for the school/organizations roots and founder.
Mr. Parker is the founder of American Kenpo. After he gave his first patch (the AKKA fist) to Ralph Castro, who wanted to use it to acknowledge his roots to Mr. Parker. He had the IKKA patch designed. Any variations of that patch by people in his lineage is a common martial arts tradition of respect for the systems roots and founder.
In many Shotokan organizations their patch will contain the Shotokan "Rising Sun" symbol, or the "Shotokan Tiger" (yes they use a tiger too) symbol in their patches.
In Goju Ryu you will see the "fist" design in various organizational patches.
In Kajukenbo, most patches have "Emperado's clover" design or the "Kajukenbo Coat of Arms" design in them.
In these systems and many, many more, this is a showing of respect and recognition for the school/organizations roots and founder.
Mr. Parker is the founder of American Kenpo. After he gave his first patch (the AKKA fist) to Ralph Castro, who wanted to use it to acknowledge his roots to Mr. Parker. He had the IKKA patch designed. Any variations of that patch by people in his lineage is a common martial arts tradition of respect for the systems roots and founder.
OP
rmcrobertson
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #46
Good lord, sensible people. A pleasure.
I think that the closeness of the different crests and logos will only be a problem if we make it a problem. The Kenpo community needs to come together instead of loking at our differences.
Actually, if you think about understanding what the crest/patch really means, there isn't much room to alter it drastically.
For those who adhere to EPAK philosophy, look at Mr. Ed Parker's explanation of the crest/patch in Volume 1 of his Infinite Insights series. He explains the reasoning for the locations of the dragon on the top of the universal pattern wheel, for the tiger at the bottom, the oriental writing, the coloring, and background.
To merely change the dragon to the left side, for example, and the tiger to the other side, would have fundamentally changed the entire purpose and would have to present a whole new philosophy for the new crest. Would this have meant a different Kenpo?
I think that's why those who follow the EPAK system, claim the lineage, and incorporate the philosophy would want to be similiar in keeping their crests with the major tenets in it.
- Ceicei
For those who adhere to EPAK philosophy, look at Mr. Ed Parker's explanation of the crest/patch in Volume 1 of his Infinite Insights series. He explains the reasoning for the locations of the dragon on the top of the universal pattern wheel, for the tiger at the bottom, the oriental writing, the coloring, and background.
To merely change the dragon to the left side, for example, and the tiger to the other side, would have fundamentally changed the entire purpose and would have to present a whole new philosophy for the new crest. Would this have meant a different Kenpo?
I think that's why those who follow the EPAK system, claim the lineage, and incorporate the philosophy would want to be similiar in keeping their crests with the major tenets in it.
- Ceicei
Nice post and good point. I think we also honor our lineage, not exactly through imitation, but through the symbolism inherent in the patch and it's components.
-Michael
-Michael
Imitation is the sincerest form of flaterry.
So instead of people griping about this crest looks like this one and such, maybe people should look at it from the fact that people liked something so much it inspired them to take from it to creat something that suits them.
So instead of people griping about this crest looks like this one and such, maybe people should look at it from the fact that people liked something so much it inspired them to take from it to creat something that suits them.
There is a lot of meaning with that crest. It is not surprising that organizations would want to carry on the heritage and philosophy of American Kenpo by retaining much of what it shows.
For those who aren't familiar with what the parts of the crest represent and why they are placed in a certain manner:
According to Ed Parker, Infinite Insights, Book 1, pages 36-38.
"THE TIGER - represents earthly strength derived during the early stages of learning. This is the stage where the individual is more impressed with his own physical prowness."
This is the reason why the tiger is located below the wheel (Mr. Parker called this the circle).
"THE DRAGON - represents spiritual strength which comes with seasoning. This mental attitude is attained during the individual's later years of training. It is placed above earthly strength (as indicated and observed on the patch) since the individual at this stage has learned to dvelop humility and self-restraint."
This is why the dragon is above the tiger, and thus above the circle.
Mr. Parker notes further: The attitude of the Dragon is the ultimate goal of KENPO. Armed with this attitude an individual will not be afraid of the opponent but of what he can do to the opponent. Thus he turns his back and walks away from an unwarranted conflict confident that he could have been the victor."
The universal pattern is the wheel, and is comprised of the circle and the dividing lines. I will not give the full explanation of the circle as there are other threads on the subject, but here is a brief summary.
"THE CIRCLE - is symbolic of several things: (1) It depicts life itself...no beginning nor end. ...The art of Kenpo...is a cycle of perpetual and unending movement or motion. (2) All moves evolve from a circle whether they are defensive or offensive. (3) ...Bond of friendship that should continuously exist... and (4) The circle is the base from which our alphabet stems."
Within the circle are lines of different lengths and directions.
"THE DIVIDING LINES - in the circle represents: (1) the original eighteen hand movements... (2)...angles from which an opponent or you can attack or defend; and (3) ...pattern...the feet too can travel..."
There is more in that book going extensively on color, oriental writing, shape, etc. However, as you have noted, all these are present in many similar crests. That is likely because these clubs/organizations also subscribe to the same philosophies that Mr. Parker set up for American Kenpo.
On a side note, I believe the very first original patch (prior to the creation of the popular crest) created was a fist with red circles around it and the words, Kenpo Karate, on the bottom. Mr. R. Castro probably still wears this patch.
- Ceicei
For those who aren't familiar with what the parts of the crest represent and why they are placed in a certain manner:
According to Ed Parker, Infinite Insights, Book 1, pages 36-38.
"THE TIGER - represents earthly strength derived during the early stages of learning. This is the stage where the individual is more impressed with his own physical prowness."
This is the reason why the tiger is located below the wheel (Mr. Parker called this the circle).
"THE DRAGON - represents spiritual strength which comes with seasoning. This mental attitude is attained during the individual's later years of training. It is placed above earthly strength (as indicated and observed on the patch) since the individual at this stage has learned to dvelop humility and self-restraint."
This is why the dragon is above the tiger, and thus above the circle.
Mr. Parker notes further: The attitude of the Dragon is the ultimate goal of KENPO. Armed with this attitude an individual will not be afraid of the opponent but of what he can do to the opponent. Thus he turns his back and walks away from an unwarranted conflict confident that he could have been the victor."
The universal pattern is the wheel, and is comprised of the circle and the dividing lines. I will not give the full explanation of the circle as there are other threads on the subject, but here is a brief summary.
"THE CIRCLE - is symbolic of several things: (1) It depicts life itself...no beginning nor end. ...The art of Kenpo...is a cycle of perpetual and unending movement or motion. (2) All moves evolve from a circle whether they are defensive or offensive. (3) ...Bond of friendship that should continuously exist... and (4) The circle is the base from which our alphabet stems."
Within the circle are lines of different lengths and directions.
"THE DIVIDING LINES - in the circle represents: (1) the original eighteen hand movements... (2)...angles from which an opponent or you can attack or defend; and (3) ...pattern...the feet too can travel..."
There is more in that book going extensively on color, oriental writing, shape, etc. However, as you have noted, all these are present in many similar crests. That is likely because these clubs/organizations also subscribe to the same philosophies that Mr. Parker set up for American Kenpo.
On a side note, I believe the very first original patch (prior to the creation of the popular crest) created was a fist with red circles around it and the words, Kenpo Karate, on the bottom. Mr. R. Castro probably still wears this patch.
- Ceicei
Rick Wade
Master Black Belt
Here are 2 more cents.
If you go to a tournament and you don't recognize a patch you might say hey what style do you study?
In lies my point.
If you are not familiar with Kenpo the Patch represents Kenpo
If you are familiar with Kenpo the question would change to What Organization or School is that patch from I havent seen it before? At that time Mr. Jones would probable say something along the lines of (now I dont know Mr. Jones from Adam) Nice to meet you the patch represents my school in Las Vegas. I was with the AKKI and this patch is just a tribute to them (or something along those lines).
Now if the patch really bothers you that much get off the couch and call the School and find out.
No wait I will do that and post a response later. I wouldnt want to take time out from your dojo.
What we all seem to forget is that even though the Senior Instructors have some differences those differences do not need to be fueled by us. If we listen to our Instructors and train, maybe someday along time from now we can repair the fracture.
Hope I didnt hurt anyones feelings.
Best of luck.
Rick
If you go to a tournament and you don't recognize a patch you might say hey what style do you study?
In lies my point.
If you are not familiar with Kenpo the Patch represents Kenpo
If you are familiar with Kenpo the question would change to What Organization or School is that patch from I havent seen it before? At that time Mr. Jones would probable say something along the lines of (now I dont know Mr. Jones from Adam) Nice to meet you the patch represents my school in Las Vegas. I was with the AKKI and this patch is just a tribute to them (or something along those lines).
Now if the patch really bothers you that much get off the couch and call the School and find out.
No wait I will do that and post a response later. I wouldnt want to take time out from your dojo.
What we all seem to forget is that even though the Senior Instructors have some differences those differences do not need to be fueled by us. If we listen to our Instructors and train, maybe someday along time from now we can repair the fracture.
Hope I didnt hurt anyones feelings.
Best of luck.
Rick
Les
Brown Belt
Over the years I've seen a lot of Kenpo patches that are 'the same but slightly different designs' and some completely different ones.
Here's a question from a different viewpoint.
When a school, club or organisation comes up with a new patch, how much effort has been put into the meaning within the design?
It's all too easy to take someone elses ideas, but it requires a bit of individual creativity to bring in something new that actually has a meaning.
My own school patch, shares some (4) elements with Mr Parkers IKKA patch, (respect for my roots), but it is an entirely different shape, with plenty of Kenpo Concepts and Principles built in to it.
I didn't come up with the Concepts and Principles myself, (I wish I was that clever), but I did make the effort to design a patch that was DIFFERENT.
Members of the AKKI will know that one of the reasons that they waited so long for the AKKI Crest was that Mr Mills wanted a patch that was different from the rest, but full of meaning.
It was a long wait, but worth it. I can understand why AKKI members get annoyed when they see a 'blatant rip-off' of their Associations distinctive patch.
Les
Here's a question from a different viewpoint.
When a school, club or organisation comes up with a new patch, how much effort has been put into the meaning within the design?
It's all too easy to take someone elses ideas, but it requires a bit of individual creativity to bring in something new that actually has a meaning.
My own school patch, shares some (4) elements with Mr Parkers IKKA patch, (respect for my roots), but it is an entirely different shape, with plenty of Kenpo Concepts and Principles built in to it.
I didn't come up with the Concepts and Principles myself, (I wish I was that clever), but I did make the effort to design a patch that was DIFFERENT.
Members of the AKKI will know that one of the reasons that they waited so long for the AKKI Crest was that Mr Mills wanted a patch that was different from the rest, but full of meaning.
It was a long wait, but worth it. I can understand why AKKI members get annoyed when they see a 'blatant rip-off' of their Associations distinctive patch.
Les
Pacificshore
Purple Belt
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2003
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- 341
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Why all the pettiness over a school patch A patch is used to cover up a tear in your gi, or prevent one:soapbox:
A patch is used to cover up a tear in your gi, or prevent one:soapbox:TheEdge883
Green Belt
- Joined
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Originally posted by Pacificshore
Why all the pettiness over a school patch
Amen to that. Do people join a martial arts school because of the cool patch or uniform they wear?
Pacificshore
Purple Belt
- Joined
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- Messages
- 341
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Well, I choose which art I'm gonna study based on how cool their school patch looks
Plus, when I list my MA training on my resume, I can list the many styles I've studied based on their cool patches, Ha!:rofl: :rofl: