Is Taekwondo progression all just memorization?

[BaehrTKD]

That's an issue only in your mind. Maybe you're overly sensitive about your training? I wasn't the least bit critical of you for not learning them. You said "nobody learns them" and that people who do are "missing the point of TKD". I merely pointed out that you are, in fact, wrong. I couldn't care less if you know them, but you are, as I said, wrong in your statements about those who did.

What I've been is attacked by you and one other individual here in the forum relentlessly since I've joined.

Everyone would get defensive if they were being attacked and discredited constantly.

Perhaps you need to go re-read what I wrote, without that enormous chip on your shoulder.

I have read what you wrote. It doesn't appear that you have however. You clearly have an axe to grind because you continue to attack me over and over again.

The only thing I have actually criticized you for is attempting to mask your self-promotion behind a load of nonsense. I didn't criticize you for self-promoting, only for trying to conceal the facts.

Question: How did you find out about my test history? Who told you? Oh that's right, I DID! How am I masking anything by providing FULL DISCLOSURE?

I don't think you understand what the word "masking" means. Masking means to hide. I wrote more information about my test history in the other thread than any other user on this site has ever provided about theirs. I am the most UNmasked user here in this forum.

And for the 3rd time now, they are self-tests with my Dad supervising (in the absence of other ITF instructors in my area), after doing 11 years at Chung Oh's School and paying test fees to test there up to assistant 3rd Dan (which is considered 3rd Dan at their school even though the certificate comes at the next test after).

Could I have travelled back and forth to Toronto (might have even been Ottawa at that point) to get ranks directly from the ITF? Of course. I didn't deem it necessary however.

If I wanted to mask something then you wouldn't know about it at all and we wouldn't be having this discussion. I would have said "this is my rank, the end". If you had questioned me on it, I wouldn't have answered. That's masking. I'm doing the opposite of that.

 

[BaehrTKD]

@Dirty Dog
Two threads in a row that you and I are on the same page.

Did I wake up in an alternate reality a week ago?

To user "skribs":

You also dodged my reply earlier when you were talking about me to another user.

I assume you agree with me and we're on the same page as well.

RE: Patterns and memorization.

You criticized my school for requiring you to memorize some step-sparring sets and do some patterns (up to Choi-Yong) of which other users trounced you in their replies that my convention was the norm.

Then I also mentioned that tests involve free sparring, creating your own moves and demonstrating, doing breaking, etc... of which you had no response because I debunked your claim that tests were purely memorization.

Good to know.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You also dodged my reply earlier when you were talking about me to another user.

I did no such thing.

I assume you agree with me and we're on the same page as well.

RE: Patterns and memorization.

You criticized my school for requiring you to memorize some step-sparring sets

Quotes, please. Because I never did.

and do some patterns (up to Choi-Yong) of which other users trounced you in their replies that my convention was the norm.

You really do live in a world all your own, don't you?

Then I also mentioned that tests involve free sparring, creating your own moves and demonstrating, doing breaking, etc... of which you had no response because I debunked your claim that tests were purely memorization.

I defy you to quote any post in which I have said any such thing.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I did no such thing.

Quotes, please. Because I never did.

You really do live in a world all your own, don't you?

I defy you to quote any post in which I have said any such thing.

I was referring to user "skribs".

 

[BaehrTKD]

Then there's the discussions I had in the recently closed thread, which I want to be very careful with what I discuss from there. There are two schools that the one responder mentioned, the one he learned at, and the one he teaches. From the one he learned at, you get the sense that the memorized curriculum was the measure of the student, based on the statement that there was no new content past a certain level (I think it was 3rd dan), so everything else is just a formality. Similarly, when he was suggesting learning from him, the start was "You should know these forms and my whole curriculum is on Youtube for free."

That's a rather limited way of looking at it. How would you do it?

Tests have well defined criteria that students are expected to know, but there is also free sparring, board breaking, and having the student demonstrate some of their own techniques at higher belt levels.

It's not just memorization, and that's why I specifically don't teach the final 6 ITF patterns. To try and remember another ~250 movements that nobody will ever learn was a waste and was missing the point of TKD.

Since you're obviously talking about me, I'll respond.

It would be appropriate to say that there was no new "memorized content" as you call it beyond 3rd Dan black belt at the school I trained at originally. They cut off the patterns at Sam-Il. Students were expected to create their own self-defence techniques and demonstrate them with a partner. Breaks were both demonstrated and chosen by the instructor. etc. The higher ranks were largely "ceremonial", acquired through age and time and whatever new unmemorized information the student picked up along the way.

There is so much more that you learn besides just the specified curriculum. Think of the curriculum as the BASE and then you pick up things on top of that as well, just as I've never stopped learning new things since leaving that school. Thanks to the internet and YouTube, every instructor is now available. Heck, I've learned several new things in the past few days that answered a LOT of questions I've always had. Many new dots are now being connected and many new things are making sense.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was referring to user "skribs".

Then you should probably do your complaining in a reply to @skribs, not me. Sheeesh. This is really pretty basic.

 

[BaehrTKD]

Then you should probably do your complaining in a reply to @skribs, not me. Sheeesh. This is really pretty basic.

I did. I replied to him, but since he mentioned you in his comment it must have notified you as well.

Look at my quote. I'm quoting him not you.

Apology accepted. 👍 Hopefully we can move on now.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It's not BS and it's not secret.

I can't teach every application because there are too many, limited only by specific circumstances. I teach students to understand the movements and the underlying principles. By doing so, they can apply one move many different ways.

"Wax on Wax Off"

 

[Earl Weiss]

As was the president of the KTA. That doesn't make them the creators of the forms.

"While General Choi certainly had input and assistance from people with Martial Arts experience, there is no doubt that he was the final authority when it came to the Chang Hon forms."

What "makes" him the creator of the forms is those who were involved in the process crediting him with being the creator of the Chang Hon patterns.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I did some more digging on his history. My instructor was at the first ever ITF International Instructor's course which was held in Montreal (1974) as a 3rd Dan black belt.

How did you come by this information? Interesting since you had to be a 4th Dan to be an international instructor, but in those days some things were "relaxed" perhaps he was knocking at the 4th Dan Door.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Yep here i is from the ITF Website:
Since the politics of Korea resulted in such a great loss of potential instructors, as well as the home base in Seoul, alternative means to certify instructors needed to be established. The ITF for a time being operated out of the successful school network that Grandmaster Park Jong-Soo set up in Canada. He also was the Secretary General of the ITF. When the ITF held their first World Championship in Montréal Canada back in 1974, they also hosted a course for local and foreign instructors to prepare for that major event. The course may have actually been called an Umpire Course as it went over the competition rules, regulations and scoring system. However they also taught both fundamental movements as well as the 24 Patterns in place at the time. The extensive training took place over a 6-day period. That course was taught by General Choi and Grandmaster J.C. Kim (Jong-Chan), who also was the Chief Instructor for the first ones back in Seoul Korea. They were assisted by VI Dan (6th Degree) Instructors Park Jong-Soo, Rhee Ki-Ha and Kong Yong-Il

The 29 senior Instructors and black belts from around the world General Choi was able to assemble and have attend this first ever type of seminar were:
VIII Dan:
NAM Tae-Hi (1 of the 1st 3 Original Masters of TKD, Pioneer of TKD in Vietnam)
VII Dan:
KIM In-Mook (Graduated 1967 ITF Course, Pioneer of TKD in Mid-West America 60s)
LEE Haeng-Ung (ATA Founder)
VI Dan:
LEE Suk-Hi (A Pioneer of TKD in Europe & Canada)
KIM Jong-Chan (1st ITF Chief Instructor & a Pioneer of TKD in Malaysia & Canada)
CHOI Chang-Keun (1st Person to leave Korea as an official TKD Instructor)
PARK Jong-Soo (Pioneer of TKD in Europe & Canada)
RHEE Ki-Ha (A Pioneer of TKD in Singapore & the Pioneer in the U.K.)
KONG Yong-Il (Toured around the world performing with Gen. Choi)
HWANG Kwang-Joo (USA)
CHUNG Kee-Tae (Canada)
KANG Dong-Won (Founder of Traditional TaeKwon-Do Magazine)
EUN Sank-Ki (Canada)
PARK Jung-Tae (Pioneer of TKD in north Korea, a Pioneer to Japan & China)
CHUN Duk-Ki (Canada)
LIM Chang-Soo (USA)
KIM Nam-Kyun (America)
HWANG Kwang-Sung (Former Special Assistant to Gen. Choi, founder of UITF)
V Dan:
YANG Dong-Ja (Former President PanAm TKD Union & TKD Reform Leader)
YU James B.C. (USA)
YU Byung-Chool (USA)
WALSON, Robert (Referred to by Gen. Choi as the leading American authority on TKD)
SEREFF, Charles E. (President of the USTF)
CHOI Ik-Sun (Canada)
IV Dan:
LOW Koon Lin (1st student of TKD in Malaysia, the 2nd Home of TKD)
YUN Ju-Ahn (USA)
POND, Daniel (Germany)
III Dan:
CHAANINE, David (1st Black Belt in Lebanon)
OH Chung-Won (Canada)

 

[BaehrTKD]

How did you come by this information? Interesting since you had to be a 4th Dan to be an international instructor, but in those days some things were "relaxed" perhaps he was knocking at the 4th Dan Door.

Another former student of the school provided it to me.

Hopefully this silences the critics around here once and for all. (A few users here were being outrageously skeptical of every claim I made about him.)

Thanks.

 

[BobY777]

Nope. I like having some patterns, and I like the teaching opportunities that one-steps provide. I just don't want the one-steps to be rote memorized, but to be a teaching tool towards application.

We do one steps without memorization. We mainly use the techniques from the poomsae in them so they become a kind of 'bunkai' , researching the applications of the techniques in the poomsae.

 

[BobY777]

Of course. It would be more than a little silly to think that high Dan practitioners are still learning a bunch of new techniques. It's also more than a little silly to say those of us who learned patterns you don't know are somehow "missing the point of TKD".

It's not about learning new techniques but how you use those techniques, the strategy , different ways of using the same techniques... the living and breathing expression

 

[BobY777]

That's a rather limited way of looking at it. How would you do it?

Tests have well defined criteria that students are expected to know, but there is also free sparring, board breaking, and having the student demonstrate some of their own techniques at higher belt levels.

It's not just memorization, and that's why I specifically don't teach the final 6 ITF patterns. To try and remember another ~250 movements that nobody will ever learn was a waste and was missing the point of TKD.



Since you're obviously talking about me, I'll respond.

It would be appropriate to say that there was no new "memorized content" as you call it beyond 3rd Dan black belt at the school I trained at originally. They cut off the patterns at Sam-Il. Students were expected to create their own self-defence techniques and demonstrate them with a partner. Breaks were both demonstrated and chosen by the instructor. etc. The higher ranks were largely "ceremonial", acquired through age and time and whatever new unmemorized information the student picked up along the way.

There is so much more that you learn besides just the specified curriculum. Think of the curriculum as the BASE and then you pick up things on top of that as well, just as I've never stopped learning new things since leaving that school. Thanks to the internet and YouTube, every instructor is now available. Heck, I've learned several new things in the past few days that answered a LOT of questions I've always had. Many new dots are now being connected and many new things are making sense.

Youtube ables us all to be a part of the shared martial journey. It's beautiful

 

[Earl Weiss]

Another former student of the school provided it to me.

Hopefully this silences the critics around here once and for all. (A few users here were being outrageously skeptical of every claim I made about him.)

Thanks.

>>>
BaehrTKD said:
I did some more digging on his history. My instructor was at the first ever ITF International Instructor's course which was held in Montreal (1974) as a 3rd Dan black belt.<<<<

Just to be clear, this was the first course held outside Seoul Korea - Not the first course.
>>>That course was taught by General Choi and Grandmaster J.C. Kim (Jong-Chan), who also was the Chief Instructor for the first ones back in Seoul Korea.<<<


Also <>>>The ITF for a time being operated out of the successful school network that Grandmaster Park Jong-Soo set up in Canada. <<<
So, it would seem if your instructor came to Canada after the ITF was there GM Park Jong Soo may already have been there.


Seems my instructor was there as well. 1 of only 3 Non Koreans.

 

[HighKick]

I remember being taught low block, high block, etc. Then there was all this hub bub about they are really grappling and arm breaks and all that b.s. When I wrestled in high school and college they taught you moves and you strung them together to form a strategy. I guess if somone wants to learn taekwondo then the teacher from day 1 should teach multiple bunkai. Does your kwan or you teach a high block as an arm break or just say it's a high block and you're a moron if you can"t figure out the other uses for that pattern?

I think you are referring to what I call the 'how'. Most anyone can learn the movements well enough to performs them aesthetically well enough to pass a testing. Not everyone takes the time or has the capacity to fully learn all the ways a movement can be applied (how/when/where). This could be the 'ancient secrets' you refer to, which makes it sound like total bs.

 

[HighKick]

It's very simple - they teach what they know. Until his death Han Cha Kyo TK-D / ITF Pioneer only taught the first 20 patterns. (With a Chung Do Kwan Flavor) I asked Nam Tae Hi about this and he said "That is what was in his head." Now like many Koreans GM Han formally Separated from General Choi around 1980 or so. I think he was married to General Choi's niece so I expect they may still have been in communication.

I get what you are saying, and fully agree.
But from what is have read in @BaehrTKD 's thread, that is not at all what happened.

 

[J. Pickard]

I don't understand the issue. Every martial art I have ever trained in required memorization, I don't see how TKD is different. In bjj I was taught techniques and line drills (they were forms, I don't care what any bjj bro says, they were bjj forms) and I had to drill them relentlessly until I had them memorized and could use the concepts I learned from them while rolling. Same in TKD, I learned techniques and forms and had to memorize them, then demonstrate I could use the concepts in various types of sparring and active resistance partner drills.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I get what you are saying, and fully agree.
But from what is have read in @BaehrTKD 's thread, that is not at all what happened.

@HighKick Huh? I didn't make any mention of Han Cha Kyo.
I agree with Earl Weiss. @Earl Weiss