Is Taekwondo progression all just memorization?

[BaehrTKD]

If you make up all your own patterns and all your own one-steps, it wouldn't be taekwondo. It would be your expression of taekwondo but your students might get confused when every other taekwondo practitioner does some sort of recognized patterns. Unless you use established forms then add a few of your own.

I agree with most of what you said (the pattern stuff), but I think the 1-step sparring techniques are normally unique to each school.

 

[isshinryuronin]

They are complex movement patterns with layers of hidden meanings.

When in elementary school I thought adding two-digit numbers was complex. Now....not so much. When in high school I thought trigonometry was complex. Now...well, I still don't understand it, so forget this example. The point is, understanding a thing, like kata forms, allows you to see it more simply.

They are unnecessary to learn how to defend yourself.

This is correct. That is not their function, but your instructor's. The function of forms is to preserve and pass down what the old masters learned about self-defense techniques.

It is like throwing out all music from the 60's and 70's because we have newer better music.

If you think the music now is better than from the 60's and 70's, well, that explains your uninformed posts

Then there was all this hub bub about they are really grappling and arm breaks and all that b.s.

See the above.
.

 

[skribs]

If you make up all your own patterns and all your own one-steps, it wouldn't be taekwondo. It would be your expression of taekwondo but your students might get confused when every other taekwondo practitioner does some sort of recognized patterns. Unless you use established forms then add a few of your own.

Every TKD organization has its own forms. Every school I've been to has had its own in-house forms and its own one-steps. You are factually incorrect.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Every TKD organization has its own forms. Every school I've been to has had its own in-house forms and its own one-steps. You are factually incorrect.

I think he is correct

"If you make up all your own patterns and all your own one-steps, it wouldn't be taekwondo. It would be your expression of taekwondo "

The problem is over time anyone with a link to a Korean who was kicking and punching calls what they do T K D, TKD. TK-D, perhaps each of those Koreans, chose to call what they were doing by the name T K D or some variation thereof, and of course there were some who rejected the name.

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you make up all your own patterns and all your own one-steps, it wouldn't be taekwondo. It would be your expression of taekwondo but your students might get confused when every other taekwondo practitioner does some sort of recognized patterns. Unless you use established forms then add a few of your own.

Exactly what happened to KKW BBs for years when the KKW recognized any number of systems. People would achieve KKW rank, go to another KKW school and and be unhappy that they did not know the curriculum . KKW took the long view. Make them KKW now and get them on board with a single system later.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Forms do not define a martial art.

No more than they'd be after studying (some of) the Chang Hon forms and then seeing someone do the Taegeuk, Palgwae, etc.

If forms do not - at least in part define, what a particular system is then what does? I will share my thoughts later.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well, except none of those people made up forms. They were designed by committee to make teaching the art to a group easier.

While General Choi certainly had input and assistance from people with Martial Arts experience, there is no doubt that he was the final authority when it came to the Chang Hon forms.

 

[Earl Weiss]

After learning Juche, I decided that I didn't like it enough to keep it. It was too similar to Ko-Dang and I would rather have pattern Ko-Dang (the original 2nd Dan pattern) any day. In my opinion, Juche is too different and too strange. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the patterns.

One of the reasons for the techniques of Ju Che was to implement some of the more athletic techniques. As far as similarity with Ko Dang, I see the "Hooking Kick" used as a block as a similarity yet it omits one of the main reasons for this technique which is a kick attack with the same foot without putting the foot down. Some other unique features involve the Side Piercing Kick followed by reverse Hook Kick without putting the foot down, The Pick Shape Kick. The dodging reverse turning kick, Flying two direction kick, and jumping double punch.

 

[HighKick]

I'm not being critical of you for learning those patterns. You are being critical of me for not learning them. That's the issue.

In one message you say to another user that "forms don't define a martial art" and then you criticize me for not learning the last few ITF patterns. If you could at least be consistent that would be nice. You say two completely different things depending on who you're talking to.

As I've told you previously, at Chung Oh's School they stopped at pattern Sam-Il. So I went to the effort of learning patterns Juche, Yoo-Sin, and Choi-Yong on my own.

After learning Juche, I decided that I didn't like it enough to keep it. It was too similar to Ko-Dang and I would rather have pattern Ko-Dang (the original 2nd Dan pattern) any day. In my opinion, Juche is too different and too strange. It doesn't fit in with the rest of the patterns.

Now, Chung Oh created his own set of school-specific patterns called Ki-Bon patterns. He did that to emphasize techniques that were either missing in the ITF pattern set, or that didn't appear until too high a level such that most students would never learn them, or simply as better beginner patterns. I have done the same thing, so I teach 24 patterns but only the first 18 ITF ones. The other patterns address shortcomings in the ITF patterns.

Now personally, I'm in the process of re-working my Ki-bon #5 and #6 patterns because I'm not happy with them, but I know you won't give me credit for knowing them.

Yes, I do believe you have missed the point of Taekwondo based on your criticisms of me.

I do not read @Dirty Dog 's comment this way at all, and I fully agree with the comment. I think you need to reread and think about what he is saying.

It is interesting that your instructor (who I have never heard of) named his form set Ki-Bon since 'kibon' means basic. Go figure.

Why would any instructor teach a student an incomplete set of forms? What do you think will happen if/when they move and start training at another location? Don't you think it will reflect negatively on both you and them?

 

[skribs]

If forms do not - at least in part define, what a particular system is then what does? I will share my thoughts later.

By this logic, BJJ and Muay Thai have no system, because they have no forms.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I do not read @Dirty Dog 's comment this way at all, and I fully agree with the comment. I think you need to reread and think about what he is saying.

I can't tell what he's saying because he completely contradicts himself from one post to the next. In this very thread he argued that "forms don't matter" and then was critical of me for not learning the final six ITF patterns. He also boasted that there were "thousands of people just like him" who "made the effort to learn them". So clearly, he thinks patterns are everything in Taekwondo despite saying that they don't matter. That's like saying it's really bright outside in this darkness.

It is interesting that your instructor (who I have never heard of) named his form set Ki-Bon since 'kibon' means basic. Go figure.

I don't lose any sleep over who has heard of who. If you made that same comment up here (Ontario) you would be laughed out of the room because your TKD instructor would have learned from him lol. All ITF TKD instructor branches in Ontario lead back to him and the guy in Toronto. In fact, the WTF instructor in my region also learned from him.

I did some more digging on his history. My instructor was at the first ever ITF International Instructor's course which was held in Montreal (1974) as a 3rd Dan black belt. I also found him in the Legacy guide as well. He's demonstrating candle technique.

They're called Ki-bon patterns because they are color belt level patterns (which is still beginner) that address shortcomings in the ITF pattern set. (I know I know, you're going to tell me the ITF patterns are perfect and have no short comings. Got it. That's why my instructor's Ki-bon patterns have foundation movements in them that don't appear in any ITF pattern yet are practiced in every TKD school. Go figure indeed.)

Why would any instructor teach a student an incomplete set of forms? What do you think will happen if/when they move and start training at another location? Don't you think it will reflect negatively on both you and them?

Because it's not incomplete. It's ITF patterns + in-house patterns.

I don't know of any students who left his school at 4th Dan or higher to train elsewhere. None.

As mentioned previously, for anyone that left, they would have been training WTF style then since there were no other ITF schools in the area.

 

[Earl Weiss]

By this logic, BJJ and Muay Thai have no system, because they have no forms.

Please note my statement "If forms do not - at least in part define, what a particular system is then what does?" Statement qualified by "In Part"
Perhaps your point about BJJ and MT not being a system would better be phrased that they are not T K D because they have no forms.
Now, this gets into a lot more complicated question as to what elements are needed for a system to be called a "Martial Art" Is Tae Bo a Martial Art? Is Cardio Kickboxing a Martial Art"
Please also note I hardly expect a definitive or universally accepted answer to the question as to: What elements are needed for a system to be called a Martial Art" I would suggest however some systems might more accurately be called "Martial Exercise" , "Martial Sport" or perhaps even "Martial Science"

 

[Earl Weiss]

Now, Chung Oh created his own set of school-specific patterns called Ki-Bon patterns.

I am not familiar with your patterns but I know people were practicing patterns called Ki Bon before they became acquainted with the Chang Hon system and long before any of the KKW systems. I have no idea if they are the same or different than the ones you practice but there are plenty of videos out there if you wish to compare.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Why would any instructor teach a student an incomplete set of forms? What do you think will happen if/when they move and start training at another location? Don't you think it will reflect negatively on both you and them?

It's very simple - they teach what they know. Until his death Han Cha Kyo TK-D / ITF Pioneer only taught the first 20 patterns. (With a Chung Do Kwan Flavor) I asked Nam Tae Hi about this and he said "That is what was in his head." Now like many Koreans GM Han formally Separated from General Choi around 1980 or so. I think he was married to General Choi's niece so I expect they may still have been in communication.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I remember being taught low block, high block, etc. Then there was all this hub bub about they are really grappling and arm breaks and all that b.s.

It's not BS and it's not secret.

When I wrestled in high school and college they taught you moves and you strung them together to form a strategy. I guess if somone wants to learn taekwondo then the teacher from day 1 should teach multiple bunkai. Does your kwan or you teach a high block as an arm break or just say it's a high block and you're a moron if you can"t figure out the other uses for that pattern?

I can't teach every application because there are too many, limited only by specific circumstances. I teach students to understand the movements and the underlying principles. By doing so, they can apply one move many different ways.

 

[BaehrTKD]

I am not familiar with your patterns but I know people were practicing patterns called Ki Bon before they became acquainted with the Chang Hon system and long before any of the KKW systems. I have no idea if they are the same or different than the ones you practice but there are plenty of videos out there if you wish to compare.

They'll be different. Ours are simply school-specific. Same with Chung Oh's. ☺️

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not being critical of you for learning those patterns. You are being critical of me for not learning them. That's the issue.

That's an issue only in your mind. Maybe you're overly sensitive about your training? I wasn't the least bit critical of you for not learning them. You said "nobody learns them" and that people who do are "missing the point of TKD". I merely pointed out that you are, in fact, wrong. I couldn't care less if you know them, but you are, as I said, wrong in your statements about those who did.

In one message you say to another user that "forms don't define a martial art" and then you criticize me for not learning the last few ITF patterns. If you could at least be consistent that would be nice. You say two completely different things depending on who you're talking to.

Perhaps you need to go re-read what I wrote, without that enormous chip on your shoulder.

Yes, I do believe you have missed the point of Taekwondo based on your criticisms of me.

The only thing I have actually criticized you for is attempting to mask your self-promotion behind a load of nonsense. I didn't criticize you for self-promoting, only for trying to conceal the facts.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If forms do not - at least in part define, what a particular system is then what does? I will share my thoughts later.

They're really not clearly defined. And that's ok. Just as one example, there are a ton of KKW schools that produce black belts who do not know the taegeuk forms. Rank doesn't matter, really, except within the school or system that issued it. Neither does what a school chooses to call their system.

While General Choi certainly had input and assistance from people with Martial Arts experience, there is no doubt that he was the final authority when it came to the Chang Hon forms.

As was the president of the KTA. That doesn't make them the creators of the forms.

 

[skribs]

@Dirty Dog
Two threads in a row that you and I are on the same page.

Did I wake up in an alternate reality a week ago?

 

[Dirty Dog]

@Dirty Dog
Two threads in a row that you and I are on the same page.

Did I wake up in an alternate reality a week ago?

Maybe you're just finally realizing that I've been right all along. The beginnings of wisdom...
Or, even a broken clock is right twice a day.