Is Rank Revokable?

[loki09789]

Rank is skill? No, it is only part of the equation. Rank is Skill, Knowledge and Character. If you think that rank is only skill then you must have missed something during your training. If character is part of rank then what haves when people do things that are lacking character?

*Sigh*

Again, let me say that my position on RANK IS SKILL is that RANK requirements are usually outlined or defined by demonstration of certain techniques/drills or what ever to an acceptable level of quality appropriate to the skill that you are attempting to earn.

IF character requirements are part of rank, then they need to be clearly outlined in the curriculum along with the skill, they need to be evaluated/tested just like techniques and SCORED just like techniques. I am not saying that there are not schools that do this in some way, only that for me, Skill is RANK and CHARACTER IS EXPECTED OF EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF RANK.

You still have not answered the questions posed to you Tim. We are obviously defining 'rank' differently and there will be no consensus let alone agreement if we are talking about "Cars" and I am talking about a Porche and you are talking about an Expedition...

Do you require some evaluation of "Character" during a belt test? How do you measure or assess a passible level of "Character" for a given rank? If you do that, then you can say that they 'lost' their rank because they failed to meet the requirements.

If someone signs a clearly outlined Conduct agreement and breeches that agreement, then they can be kicked out of the class but you CANNOT ethically touch their rank IMO (see that I am not speaking for everyone here) because the outline for rank/promotion is a skill/knowledge test.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

Please dont take offense, Im not really interested in pointing fingers and hope my "tone" here is friendly....but IMHO things were going along "fairly" smoothly up till this point....

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6706&page=11&pp=15

Not that your ponts were invalid, but from there on things took a confrontational turn...theres too much "fault" to go around to place it all on one persons shoulders here.

Tom,

My Tone is just fine. You all think I have something to griind. I do not.

I do try to keep things running here smoothly. I was confused.

I could easily point to any one of Mr. Martin's restatements and state it was going fine until here.

We disagree. That is fine. You make the point and statment. Paul Martin Does not.

Paul Martin makes comments about how I need to define my meaning, after I wrote down my definitions from a dictionary. Yet, he asked me to redefine it like I am some child he attempts to teach. He states people should have Psych and teaching skills, I personally think he should not teach. Everyone should be requried to have a math minor, it requires the person to think in a logical format. Also I think a Philosophy minor with Logic should be a mandatory requirement.

He has made some unlogical statements, and I asked for clarification.

So, once again I am the bad guy.

Fine I am and always will be bad the bad guy. My Tone is the Evil ADMIN out to get you.

Is this what you and Paul want?

And before you state I say I took it wrong, Paul Martin, took comments like this wrong and so did you, when I tried to give feedback. I was told to shut up and go away, I had no right to make such comments, and then the negative rep and the reports began towards me and about me.

I asked for clarification. I got none.

I gave definition. I was told to supply my definitions. I already had. Still confusing and not logical.

I asked for a definition from Paul Martin, since obviously he is using another language or dictionary then I am. I am still waiting for his reply.

Sorry, for the tone, it is only what I have ben given in the past. I tired to be nice. I was ignored. I tried to get clarification, and I am told it is Bad Admin.

Do you really want to draw the line in the sand?

Here is the crux. Paul Martin and Tom Gerace, do not wish to ever look weak or like they may have lost a point. They also enjoy conflict. I believe you are not happy unless you are in conflict. I saw a thread bouncing back and forth, in circles. Instead of just locking the thread, I asked a question, and for clarification. So you are right. I should not have opened up and wrote the question.

Next time I see a thread going in circles, I will lock it. I will give negative rep to all those who continue to argue the same point back and forth and not add any new ideas or information, and this does not include just asking the other person to what about, and retating what they said in reverse or what you said before.

If you all want a bad Admin, and you think Seig is not the man for the job, no problem. You got him. It is all me fault. From now on you will have something to complain about.

So, your choices are:

1) Apologize

2) Not apologize and continue the way we are.

 

[Tgace]

I never thought it was about winning or loosing. Im sorry if you think that it is... but you are projecting something (at least upon me) that dosent exist. Either debate/discuss the philosophical issue at hand, or ignore it completely. I dont think that either Paul or I were saying anything that requires this level of agitation.

My point was that nobody thought any of this was a huge problem and were discussing things nicely (minus a few barbs traded here and there) until that point. For some reason things got ugly from there on out.


So we disagree about what rank means....big deal.

btw:What do you believe needs to be apologized for?

 

[Tgace]

As to character being part of rank. Thats even more of a subjective measurement than skill. If that were measurable and gradeable, there would be reasons to strip many people of their rank.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

As to character being part of rank. Thats even more of a subjective measurement than skill. If that were measurable and gradeable, there would be reasons to strip many people of their rank.

Don't officers in the military have a code of conduct (character) that they have to follow? Since I have several ex-military people training in my school, we have talked about how people get rank stripped or even kicked out of the military with dishonorable discharges. The common theme is how they behaved (character). If people can lose their rank, status, positions, license, etc everywhere else in life then why not the martial arts?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

As the President of the WMAA I reserve the right to promote, demote or revoke the rank of our members based on several things: Skill, Knowledge and Character. I make it a point to personally get to know ALL of our Black Belt candidates. When someone tests under the banner of the WMAA, they are seeking our endorsement of their rank. Seeing that each member is a reflection of our organization, their actions in public can come back on us. We encourage our members to have a will of their own and a right to express they way they feel which is quite evident here on MT. But if we are informed of our members partaking is questionable actions or breaking the law, we then look at possible actions by our organization.

We have been very fortunate in not having to strip anybody’s rank in our group. This probably has something to do with the application process within our organization. This was a standard set by Grandmaster Presas while he was alive. Following his lead, we are improving on the process to keep from having repeat problems. There are rules in society that we have to follow and a martial art organization is no different.

 

[Tgace]

Don't officers in the military have a code of conduct (character) that they have to follow? Since I have several ex-military people training in my school, we have talked about how people get rank stripped or even kicked out of the military with dishonorable discharges. The common theme is how they behaved (character). If people can lose their rank, status, positions, license, etc everywhere else in life then why not the martial arts?

MA is nothing like the Military. MA rank is nothing like military rank. Military rank is (primarily) a method of organizing command. That organization is for the purpose of carrying out a mission. MA rank is simply to signify "who knows what". I agree with Bob when he said his concept of rank was...

I see it as a way to keep score, and to aid an instructor in knowing where his students are. It's also good for a student to measure their own progress.

Thinking that MA rank possesses some sort of real "power" over anybody is fantasy IMHO. Thinking that a bunch of folks taking MA classes has any more than a passing similarity to the military is erroneous IMHO.


To address the "people can lose their rank, status, positions, license, etc everywhere else in life then why not the martial arts?" question. I would say...because in all those instances, those "ranks, etc." confer some sort of privilege/power. They arent simply a measurement tool. I think it would help me understand your point if you defined what you think "Rank" means and is for in your school.

 

[Tgace]

That being said I also think that demanding your students to adhere to a set of ethics standards is admirable. However if they break those standards I (personally) dont think you can do much more than boot the person out of the school. You cant really "revoke" the rank if rank is just a measurement of skill.

Once again this is just a philosophical difference....not saying "your wrong! You cant do that!"

 

[loki09789]

As the President of the WMAA I reserve the right to promote, demote or revoke the rank of our members based on several things: Skill, Knowledge and Character. I make it a point to personally get to know ALL of our Black Belt candidates. When someone tests under the banner of the WMAA, they are seeking our endorsement of their rank. Seeing that each member is a reflection of our organization, their actions in public can come back on us. We encourage our members to have a will of their own and a right to express they way they feel which is quite evident here on MT. But if we are informed of our members partaking is questionable actions or breaking the law, we then look at possible actions by our organization.

We have been very fortunate in not having to strip anybody’s rank in our group. This probably has something to do with the application process within our organization. This was a standard set by Grandmaster Presas while he was alive. Following his lead, we are improving on the process to keep from having repeat problems. There are rules in society that we have to follow and a martial art organization is no different.

And within your philosophical stance, you see that as reasonable. I personally don't see how you can take away 'rank' based on character actions if you are not requiring them as part of your promotion process.

I DO see it as reasonable to either freeze, suspend membership or simply eject people if they act 'out of character' regardless of rank because the character issue is not linked to skill IMO.

Comparing military rank, licensure or other 'power' rank structures to martial arts rank IMO is wrong. If you are a Brown belt, you are not a better person by virtue of your rank than a white belt. If you are a BB IN SKILL (again teaching priviledges/authority changes things here) that does not make you a better person than the newbie walking in the door. AND you have no more 'right' to judge anothers 'character' because you are a BB.

Character expectations need to be clearly outlined as a membership requirement IN GENERAL regardless of rank. Anyone who could be seen or recognized as a representative of your group should be expected to conduct themselves as basically a decent, contributing member of society (Specifiy how ever you want).

If you are not including 'character' in your rank requirements then you can not 'revoke' rank based on 'character' issues. You CAN still take actions to ensure top notch people stay and deadbeats leave, but rank is earned based on performance of skill and knowledge IN GENERAL and really can not be touched.

 

[Tgace]

Hey rich, if you want to discuss things about this thread, PM me or start a new thread. The rep point games are childish.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I personally don't see how you can take away 'rank' based on character actions if you are not requiring them as part of your promotion process.

I think you may have missed this in my post, Paul. I DO make character a requirement.

As the President of the WMAA I reserve the right to promote, demote or revoke the rank of our members based on several things: Skill, Knowledge and Character.

This will be my last post for a while because it a gorgeous weekend in Buffalo for a change and I am going to enjoy it while I can! I'll check back in later in the week.

For everyone else, have a nice weekend.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hey rich, if you want to discuss things about this thread, PM me or start a new thread. The rep point games are childish.

First, neither you nor Paul apologized to me.

As I went through the old FMA and Modern Arnis section and gave people positive rep for posts that contributed, I have now started goign through and giving negative rep as well for non value added posts, and posts that are contributing to the downfall fo a thread or posts that are nothign more that someone repeating their point of view over and over and over.

Rich

Staff Note:
If you so choose you can contribute to Martial Talk and become a supporting member and then turn off reputation if it bothers you to get feedback and to know that I have signed it.

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Adminsitrator

 

[Tgace]

Seems like abuse of power, authority and "rep point harassment" to me. If I could do that Id probably be booted. Lead by example huh?

 

[Tgace]

First, neither you nor Paul apologized to me.

You have problems.

 

[Rich Parsons]

You have problems.

Paul, demanded an apology of me befire, and asked for me to be on his ignore list.

So I cannot reply in kind?


As to abuse, it is balance, as I abused in the positive now I am using it to balace with negative as well.

My Opinion. And yes I will restate it just like other restate their opinion, until you either stop or go away.

My opinion

 

[Rich Parsons]

This thread is locked pending review

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Assistant Administator

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just a late note:
Mike and/or I will review this thread shortly.
In the mean time, I highly suggest everyone step back, take a deep breath and go enjoy the weekend. Everyone involved in the 'heat' here lives in an area that all too soon will be under snow, and here in Buffalo it's a Beautifl summer day. I myself will be heading out shortly to enjoy it, as I get away from the PC all too infrequently.

We will look at this particular mess shortly.

 

[Seig]

In light of recent events within this thread, it has been decided within the upper Admininstration that action needs to be taken.
The staff of Martial Talk walks a fine line between being a regular posting member and being staff. As staff, we are held to a higher standard than the normal member. This line can become blurry at times, especially when people make comments like, "You can't have an opinion, you're a moderator." Being on the Martial Talk staff can be and often is demanding; however, this does not justify some of the actions taken, most notable and recently within this thread. As the Ops Admin, I often have to make decisions that I personally do not like. For Rich Parson's recent actions, he is being suspended for two weeks. Upon his return, some of his administrator privledges will be reduced.

To this end, I would like to address the subtle and not so subtle sniping in this thread. Once again, I find myself refereeing a urinary olympiad among the Modern Arnis crowd. So that it is not said that I am picking on any one person, effective immediately, the following is Martial Talk Policy. Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning. Take your personal issues elsewhere.

Seig
MT OPS Admin