Is Mr. Parker The Father Of American Karate?

[Goldendragon7]

I appreciate your views, you bring up several good points however I was not talking about paraphernalia (clothing, weapons etc.) but the art itself. Yes, Ed Parker did respect the past and the originators (Chinese) but did not copy forms or movements. This is well documented. He gave credit where credit was due, so we'll just have settle by agreeing to disagree on this one.

:asian:

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Where should we start first at. The name he chose, Kenpo karate is of Asian culture, you can't find the word in dicionary. Second he uses a Gi doesn't this come from Asian culture. He also use bow or salutation which has some Asian culture in it. The use of belts in general was from Asian culture. The forms you talked about, yes they maybe made in the U.S. but the idea of kata or forms is a Asian culture. Did he developed the forms himself, or did he have help with this? Wasn't the guy that help developed them from Asian desent? Two of the weapons forms use traditional COJ weapons, Staff, Nunchaku. Using names to describe techniques. Tai chi does this, isn't it Asian culture. Also didn't the Tracy's start this first? Ed like the idea, but the tracy's had moved on and Ed didn't wanted to use their names. I have heard Kajukenbo was the first American made martial arts? And if we are going to talk about who made the first American martial art, I would think Col. Rex Applegate would have to be in there. Since he help train American soliders and spies in WWII. Or perhaps Tom Hyer the first bare knuckle American Champion (1841). I am sure the real Americans (Native American Indians) had some kind of fighting arts. So Ed wasn't probably the first, but he did promoted it the best!
Bob:asian:

yes, for martial arts in the states, there is a good case to be made for Kajukenbo-- hair splitters will bring up that the islands were yet apart of the states at the time, etc.--all in all, i think we tend to get narrow focused -AKK is certainly an american interpretation of the asian arts and the asian arts are for most folk- the martial arts in total.

Yet, we in the western world had our own fighting art traditions- sword/fencing, wrestling, staff, knife, boxing- these are traditional Western fighting methods brought to the States from Europe.

Ed Parker was vital in the introduction of Asian Martial Arts into this country. He was very much respected from all asian communities for his contributions.

from his studies and immersion into the asian arts he built his own unique system. there is and will be an asian connection that goes beyond the borrowing of gi's and salutations etc.

As i've said before, his influence was so vast and diverse, that it is only normal that those who know his contributions would like to bestow a fitting title for all that he did.

not everyone will agree and that's normal-- either you feel this title is fitting to the man for his contributions or not. it isn't such a big deal--most in the arts probably don't even care.


peace.



:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Where should we start first at. The name he chose, Kenpo karate is of Asian culture, you can't find the word in dicionary. Second he uses a Gi doesn't this come from Asian culture. He also use bow or salutation which has some Asian culture in it. The use of belts in general was from Asian culture. The forms you talked about, yes they maybe made in the U.S. but the idea of kata or forms is a Asian culture. Did he developed the forms himself, or did he have help with this? Wasn't the guy that help developed them from Asian desent? Two of the weapons forms use traditional COJ weapons, Staff, Nunchaku. Using names to describe techniques. Tai chi does this, isn't it Asian culture. Also didn't the Tracy's start this first? Ed like the idea, but the tracy's had moved on and Ed didn't wanted to use their names. I have heard Kajukenbo was the first American made martial arts? And if we are going to talk about who made the first American martial art, I would think Col. Rex Applegate would have to be in there. Since he help train American soliders and spies in WWII. Or perhaps Tom Hyer the first bare knuckle American Champion (1841). I am sure the real Americans (Native American Indians) had some kind of fighting arts. So Ed wasn't probably the first, but he did promoted it the best!
Bob:asian:

Real Americans? :bird:

 

[Klondike93]

Is there a problem with my American Indian brothers?



:asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Originally posted by Rainman





Real Americans? :bird:

Yes I was wondering that myself. We where the intruders(White Man). Do you have a problem with me calling Native American Indians the real Americans?
Bob :asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

No he didn't take C,O or J Martial Arts and add theories and concepts. Kenpo has no forms that resemble anything like Asian MA or any other for that matter.

I have seen many kenpoists and have discussed the art in detail with them. I have seen them perform their techniques and their forms. I have questioned them in order to better undersatnd it. It's Southern Chinese Kung Fu--right down to the "secret sign" (two fingers from one hand sticking up behind the elbow of the forward-stretched other hand). To say that it has "no forms that resemble anything like Asian MA or any other for that matter" is unsupportable.

I'm currently having Internet problems so please excuse me if I am not back promptly to see your reply.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador



the "secret sign" (two fingers from one hand sticking up behind the elbow of the forward-stretched other hand

You mean the Kiu Sao?

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Is there a problem with my American Indian brothers?



:asian:

Well lets see- I live with an "Indian" and my teacher is an "Indian"- They really prefer to be called by their names instead of "hey indian"

Yes I was wondering that myself. We where the intruders(White Man). Do you have a problem with me calling Native American Indians the real Americans?

I didn't intrude anywhere. I was made in America. Color and heritage have nothing to do with anything. If you are born here you are Native American no matter what. Amerigo Vespucci is who gave the name to the continents, an Italian explorer. So your argument makes no sense whatsoever. North America was not ruled by a single faction. More or less warlords with certain territories much the way China was until the 1900's with many dialects and not much cohesion.

You're real if you are born here and you are real if you become a naturalized citizen of the United States. Unless you are trying to tell me you are not a real American. If that is your logic- okay whatever works for you- just don't paint me with that brush. I am proud to be a American don't tell me I'm not a real one.

 

[arnisador]

I have seen both the one-finger version and the two-finger version done. But, if this isn't Chinese in origin then then what is?

 

[arnisador]

Please, take the citizenship discussion to the Locker Room.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador

I have seen both the one-finger version and the two-finger version done. But, if this isn't Chinese in origin then then what is?

K, I didn't want to talk out of my **** earlier, which is why I
asked. I think you're just taking "Kenpo has no forms that
resemble anything like Asian MA or any other for that matter. "
a little too deep. No one denies where it's origins are.

 

[Nightingale]

saying american kenpo is asian is like saying that because my art teacher was italian, that all my paintings are italian. just because I learned how to hold a brush, how to shade and blend, from an italian, doesn't mean that my work is italian. I took the basics and made them into something that is entirely my own. sure, my teacher's influence will be there, but nobody's going to say that the paintings aren't uniquely mine, because I took the skills that were taught to me and made them my own and applied them my own way.

the same with Mr. Parker. Just because his teacher was a student of the asian martial arts doesn't mean that the final product that Mr. Parker created is also asian. he learned about asian martial arts, analyzed it, took what he thought was useful and discarded what he thought wasn't, and then used that as a platform on which to build something new entirely. Kenpoists do not deny that we have roots in asia. Most of us do not deny our roots from our country of origin... example: My heritage is Irish. however, through generations of americanization, I am an american. Looking at me it is obvious where I came from. I have red hair and green eyes. I'm named after a saint. my parents are catholic. Looking at Kenpo, it is also obvious where it came from when you look at the uniforms, the name, and the ranking system.

however, those traits, both the ones I mentioned about myself, and the ones about kenpo, are surface traits. Its what others see when they observe without delving deeper. If you look deeper at me, you see a love of baseball (go dodgers), and a sense of national pride in the USA, both things uniquely American (ok, ok, so baseball has spread to Canada and Japan...its still an american sport). Kenpo too, has things that are unique to Parker, and unique to American martial arts. On the surface, yes, kenpo looks asian. Part of this was done deliberately by Mr. Parker, because he was running a business and needed name recognition. You can't sell a product if people don't know what it is. However, if you look at the philosophies of kenpo (suggested reading: Infinite Insights, Vol 1) you see ideas and ways of movement and ways of thinking that are unique to kenpo, and unique to American martial arts.

sigh... its way too early in the morning to be thinking this much, so I hope I'm making sense.

respectfully,
-nightingale-

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by nightingale8472

saying american kenpo is asian is like saying that because my art teacher was italian, that all my paintings are italian. just because I learned how to hold a brush, how to shade and blend, from an italian, doesn't mean that my work is italian. I took the basics and made them into something that is entirely my own. sure, my teacher's influence will be there, but nobody's going to say that the paintings aren't uniquely mine, because I took the skills that were taught to me and made them my own and applied them my own way.

GREAT ANALOGY!

Originally posted by nightingale8472

I have red hair and green eyes.

Oh yeah??? :supcool: How YOU doiiiiin' ?

 

[Klondike93]

Very good point


:asian:

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Very good point


:asian:

Thank you Klondike93 I appreciate the sentiments.

:asian: