Is It Possible?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kaygee, Jan 7, 2013.

  1. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    In most cases, I'd ask how you know that "no school" does or does not do anything, but in your case I wouldn't be suprised to hear that you'd enrolled in all of them. For a short time. :rofl:

    And how is point sparring LESS helpful than pounding on a poor defenseless bag that cannot move or strike back?
     
  2. Mauthos

    Mauthos 2nd Black Belt

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    I think this thread poses an interesting question. Belts in my opinion do not mean anything regarding to skill in actual competition or real life situations. Some black belts are phenomenal fighters, others get bested regularly by any coloured belt, but their technique is flawless. It is all relative, a black belt normally symbolizes dedication and time spent training in a particular martial art.

    Due to my past jobs and traveling a great deal, belts never meant a thing to me, I just wanted to train and sought out decent clubs where ever I was at that particular time. Therefore, I hold several coloured belts in several martial arts, but it took me approximately 20 years to actually obtain a black belt and although I was very proud, it didn't change my opinion that belt colour doesn't really matter (it took me a further 6 years until I was pretty much told I was grading for my 2nd).

    However, there is also an important thing to note and that is, in all honesty, you never stop learning when training in any martial art. It may seem like it is the same moves repeated in different sequences, but as you practice you improve, refine and understand those moves even more. Especially as in many martial arts, as a black belt, you are expected to teach or at least assist in teaching and I have found this also opens your eyes and allows you to understand the art to a greater degree. Students will always make you think and question which can do nothing but improve your own understanding of a style.

    I cannot comment as to further techniques after black belt for your particular style, but I know that my style, Kenpo, does have the prerequisite new forms but although the techniques you learn up to 3rd dan are the same as earlier grades, they are known as extensions as you now learn how to take a SD technique that little bit further, for example Twirling wings is first taught in the purple belt syllabus and then again, with its extension, in the 1st black belt.

    I do believe training at home is important and can help keep you sharp, but in my opinion this needs to be mixed up with training with a club, with an instructor and other students. I personally don't train in Kenpo having moved away from my original Kenpo club and mine is the only one in my current area. However, at least 6 times a year I visit my instructor and his students or they come to me, to keep my hand in as it were.

    Training in a club allows you to improve, by having that critical view from your instructor, being surprised by students that will make you think, sweat and react in new ways. Nothing can improve your fighting ability than sparring with a variety of abilities and builds whether it is realistic pressure tested fighting, semi-continuous, full contact, point scoring, it'll all help you develop into a better fighter all round. I personally do not like point scoring fighting, but I have trained in it as well as full contact, semi-contact (I have fought a lot in both semi and full contact competitions) and I always pressure test my stuff, it has help and improved me to no end.

    I do not think the main purpose for training in a martial art should be to attain a black belt status (I am one of those that does believe you only truly start learning when you achieve your BB now), but to constantly strive to perfect your style, technique and to improve your understanding and ability.

    However, it is really what works for you. If you prefer training solo, going at it at your own pace at your own time, then feel free to fill your boots. My advice though would be to stick with a school, enjoy the training and learn the lessons taught literally and the ones that will creep up on you, you'll be a better martial artist and fighter for it.
     
  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    The absolute 100% serious answer is: First learn all those things, really learn them, then, after the period of a couple of years which it will take to gain enough expertise, you will find that you already know the answer for yourself. Either you'll want to keep doing it or you won't.

    It's really that simple.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  4. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    There are lots of people who don't care about having a black belt. Ever heard of a "Professional Brown Belt" in Judo? It's not exactly uncommon for Judoka to just keep doing Judo because they enjoy it and a lot of them stop testing at Brown because they've got enough Dojo-rank to randori hard with whoever shows up but they don't have the pressure of being required to go for Dan ranking.

    Beyond that there are a crap-ton of martial arts that either have different, non Gup/Dan (Kyu/Dan), ranking systems or no ranking system at all. There are some which have no "rank" to speak of except for competition victories. Yet all of these practitioners find enough value in the training that they continue, regardless of not having "Black Belt" as a goal.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  5. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Well, there's more to it than that. There's a certain level of expertise which is necessary for 80% of Self Defense or 80% of Military Combat effectiveness. But there's the other 20% that you can go to if you want. I see this extremely well illustrated in Western civ. Saber traditions. When you look at the military Saber manuals, intended to instruct recruits in the most simple and effective methods, the systems tend to be quite small and basic. The KISS Principle is in effect. On the other hand, when you look at material for Dueling and related Fencing, you see a lot more sophisticated, detailed, and developed systems. What's the difference? The guy at the other end of the sword. The more adept your opponent, the better you have to be to succeed.

    I see the same thing in Bayonet too.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    No, I don't think so.

    If all you were interested in was pragmatic self defense you'd buy a gun and get training and a CCP in that, then you'd go find someone teaching small knives, short sticks, and some sort of modern CQC. But you're not doing that. You're looking for "Martial Arts" so, like Rocco in Key Largo, "you want more." The problem for you is that you haven't figured out exactly what that "more" is yet.

    Figure out what you really want, emotionally, and you'll find out what you need to do to fill that emotional need.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  7. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    That doesn't mean the system is "broken" it just means that what we martial artists think that non-martial artists think the dan/kyu(gup) system means is inaccurate. The "system" doesn't need fixing. Either the general public needs educated about what the system represents or we martial artists need to realize that the general public has gotten the message. One of those two things.

    Now, since I've been seeing (and have written, myself) articles for many years stating that rankings in one system do not equate to skill in some other system, and, equally, I've seen "black belt = beginning" vs "black belt = expert" debates going back, literally, decades, I'd have to conclude that the information is "out there" for anyone who's interested in seeing it. That must, therefore, mean that the general public either already knows or just simply doesn't care about the distinction. :)

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  8. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    Maybe you need to switch styles as it seems you now have differant goals in your training.

    Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
     
  9. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    No, the difference is that the other students, who stay longer and get more practice, will be better able to perform the techniques and less likely to make mistakes, mistakes which could get them hurt.

    Ummm.... yeeah... You have some basic assumptions which may not be accurate. How to you know that if you have to defend yourself, "it will be against some punk that throws haymakers?" Really? How do you know that you, "would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive?" What makes you really believe that training is that low or that 99% are "not aggressive?" For that matter, who says that people don't start non-aggressive and circumstances alter? Road Rage happens to everyone and everyone can have a bad day.

    I really think you need to look closely at what your base inputs are.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  10. harlan

    harlan 2nd Black Belt

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    Having read your previous posts, I can say with certainty, that paying 100$ month is a good deal for you. You can keep the basic skills and fitness level that you value sharp.

    Personally, after reading the post below, I would not teach you...for any price. You simply do not appear to have what it takes to succeed in a martial study.

     
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  11. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    It seems he's struggling to "get it." Nothing gets ingrained in such short periods of time.

    Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2
     
  12. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Why is it that most people assume that they'll be assaulted by an "untrained drunk/bully?" Statistics indicate that most violent assaulter, people most likely to mug you or pick a bar fight, have been in many fights prior to meeting you. You're just another fight to them. Further, even sans "formal training," just getting out and actually fighting is a great method of instilling the basics of "what works."

    Now, I'm not saying that it's most likely that you'll be attacked by ninjas but, rather, that the concept of the most likely attacker being an "untrained drunk/bully" is a fallacy. He's not necessarily going to be some goob throwing wild haymakers!

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  13. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I regret that I can only hit "Thanks" on this post once. It deserves 5 or 10.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  14. harlan

    harlan 2nd Black Belt

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    And I think that 'to the right student, the right teacher/school/training situation'. Short term goals, impatience, lack of understanding of the role of sensei, I think this student is barking up the wrong tree. Wants to do martial arts, but doesn't have the temperament for it.

    Stick to a good gym.

     
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    It may be but it doesn't have to be.

    Most martial arts started out as a system for fighting. Many of them still are. Many, however, have evolved and adapted to better fit their modern environment which, particularly in the U.S. and Japan, seldom require actual melee skills (statistically speaking). If they were to survive, they had to change and offer benefits to modern practitioners in excess of simple "fighting" skills.

    For any given person in the United States, the odds of being the victim of a ANY violent crime (such as being slapped by an irate waitress) is somewhere south of 2% and there is about a .0056% chance they will die from a homicide.

    Thus we have martial arts that "enhance physical condition" and "build character and respect."

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, these are good points and I agree. And yet I still feel that sometimes more is simply not better. Sometimes people are unable to recognize what does NOT belong in the curriculum.
     
  17. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    The real basis of any art isn't just about how to punch, kick, throw, etc. If you see it that way then, yes, it's all just motion rearranged in different orders and there's no point in getting/seeking instruction because you already feel that you have this part down well enough and are in great shape. However, the real meat of the arts goes behind mere how to also encompassing when (timing), what (targets, angles), why (tactics, strategies), who (ethics, force regulation, situation awareness) and where (standing, ground, confined space, cluttered parking lot, environment, weapons availability, friends nearby, hostile part of town), etc.

    Much of this can't be done without at least one other person to train with and almost all of it is easier for most people to grasp when instructed on it rather than working it out for themselves (though there are many people who can work it out for themselves with limited to no instruction).

    I don't fear the guy who has done 1,000 kicks 1 time or the guy that's done 1 kick 1,000 times. If I feared any man it would be the one who trained to use however much he knows against someone skilled who doesn't want to allow him to use it.
     
  18. alburyscott

    alburyscott White Belt

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    If you take boxing as an example (as you did), I have a friend who is a trainer. He has worked with don king and multiple world champions. I asked him, and he said he could teach most people the basic punches in about 2 weeks (in most cases). I said how long before someone could use these on the street if need be. His answer was about 2 to 3 years. I asked him how much longer would it be if they took the two weeks, and trained on their own. NEVER. If you don't train in a ring/mat, with real people, you never learn the skills. I tend to believe him
     
  19. chinto

    chinto Senior Master

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    I agree, but you will learn a lot more and understand a lot more, and more quickly if you train under a competent instructor.
     
  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    that goes without saying, and if a shorter course is to be successful then it is only with a competent instructor.

    The point being, if all you want is some fundamental fighting skills and a way to exercise, you can get that pretty quickly. You don't need to study for years and years, and you don't need to reach the high ranks in the martial arts to get that.123
     

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