Is it OK to tase a 9 yr. old?

[loki09789]

The other question is how was the taser employed. there are two modes: when you shoot the needles and a less intense charge when you use it as a stun gun. Which use was it in this situation? The 'special need' isn't specified, so it could be a million things - some of which can mean a reduced inhibition to doing harm to others and self (there are some BIG kids out there with special needs -we don't know enough to make a call in this case)....

I think it is ironic how little information there is in the article and how quickly people are jumping to conclusions and judgements -when we, as posters here complain about the volumes of assumptions and judgements laid on us as martial artists.

I agree that the thin details of this situation sound bad for the LEO, but I think it is valid to say that it is entirely possible that the child, no matter how small/large and no matter what the special needs were could lead to a situation where the child was a danger to herself and the safest way to control the situation for everyone was to use a less than lethal response.

Would the outcry be any different if, in the process of using controlling techniques (which we have all posted LEO are minimally trained in anyway), the girl had her shoulder separated or got a black eye or some other injury - NOT because the LEO was being too rough but because he was not trained/practiced as well as he could have been and she was really struggling hard? I think it would be even worse. It doesn't sound like there was any damage done, just some discomfort.

If the details pan out that the officer was in the wrong, fine. But until then, arm chair quarterbacking on this is a waste.

 

[MA-Caver]

Seems somebody better track down the continuation of the story to get more details ...

 

[Tgace]

Not enough data to comment.

 

[Michael Billings]

Ya know ... we revoked an offender's parole here in Texas for using a stun gun on his son. There was no warning on the box, he tried it on himself, spankings did not work, no bruises from the stun gun. He was using it to encourage his son to walk faster, otherwise he would miss the school bus consistantly. Yanking him along, spanking, etc. did not work. This did - Gee, does that make it OK?

-Michael

 

[Rich Parsons]

Ya know ... we revoked an offender's parole here in Texas for using a stun gun on his son. There was no warning on the box, he tried it on himself, spankings did not work, no bruises from the stun gun. He was using it to encourage his son to walk faster, otherwise he would miss the school bus consistantly. Yanking him along, spanking, etc. did not work. This did - Gee, does that make it OK?

-Michael

Micheal speaking from not know the rest of the story of the original post.

This story does not make sense, unless you subscribe to the child can be treated like a dog or cat. In which case most will state it is not OK.

As mentioned before, if it was done to prevent worse damage or injury to herself or other children or personages, then it might be justified under certain conditions. i.e. all factors meet to normally use the tool is in place. Yet, many will believe it not appropriate under any condition. I just hope I am not faced with the decision myself.

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

I concur!

-MB

 

[Tgace]

We were just told in training today to consider using OC (we dont have tasers) whenever a suspect refuses to comply to arrest orders (i.e. "Your under arrest turn around and place your hands on top of your head"....."FU, Pig, Ill kick your..." PSSSTTT!). Once you lay hands on and the struggle starts the risk of injury to all involved skyrockets. Like I said, in this case there isnt enough detail, but even a 9yo kicking, biting, throwing objects etc. MAY require some form of non-lethal control to preven injury. Tasers, while not very PC in appearance, when employed are fairly safe to use on any suspect. I was zapped in training and besides the momentary loss of muscle control and confusion. I was none the less for wear.

Was it justified in this case? I dont know, maybe....and as a side note, a father using a stun gun to punish a child is light years away (in intent), when compared to an officer using one in the course of his job.

 

[psi_radar]

We don't have all the information here, true, but I can't fathom a situation in which a grown man would need to tase a handcuffed 9-year old girl. There are plenty of restraint holds that are warranted and approved for these instances. If she needed sedation, they should have called an ambulance. A taser is a VERY poor substitute. Although it's hard to always understand or predict the actions of kids with special needs, they should be afforded the dignity of humans, not animals.

 

[Tgace]

Was she cuffed behind the back? Like, I said theres not enough detail for me to condemn the action here. Something strange I saw is that the officer at the scene called for the taser. So now theres 2 officers there and the taser was still used....

 

[shesulsa]

We don't have all the information here, true, but I can't fathom a situation in which a grown man would need to tase a handcuffed 9-year old girl. There are plenty of restraint holds that are warranted and approved for these instances. If she needed sedation, they should have called an ambulance. A taser is a VERY poor substitute. Although it's hard to always understand or predict the actions of kids with special needs, they should be afforded the dignity of humans, not animals.

Thank you for reminding us of something we need so desperately to remember while on the warrior path - compassion.

Autism is one developmental disability and Dennis Debbaudt is a law enforcement officer who has developed materials to train officers about handling these types of situations with minimal harm. The techniques can be used for other types of developmental disabilities as well.

http://autism.about.com/cs/civilrights/a/lawenforce.htm :asian:

 

[Tgace]

Heres some more


Girl hit with Taser was combative, police reports say

09:38 AM MST on Friday, May 28, 2004


By Eric Swedlund / Arizona Daily Star



A 9-year-old handcuffed girl was swearing, thrashing and attempting to kick out a patrol car window when a South Tucson police sergeant used a stun gun to subdue her, according to police reports released Thursday.


The incident has sparked some public outcry, though an attorney for the sergeant said the out-of-control girl presented a danger to the officers and herself. The incident remains under investigation.


On May 8, Officer Michael Hood was dispatched to catch the girl, who had run away from a residential psychiatric center for children. When he found the girl, she started swearing at him, according to the reports.


Hood called Sgt. Armando Teyechea for backup because in prior contacts with the girl she was combative, "fighting, biting, kicking and punching school staff and other police officers," Hood wrote. The girl is 4 feet, 7 inches tall and weighs 85 pounds.


Hood handcuffed the girl and placed her in the back of his patrol car. Teyechea and two officials from the Arizona's Children Association home, 2700 S. Eighth Ave., had also arrived.


Hood was attempting to place leg restraints on the girl "to keep her from kicking the window out," he wrote, when the girl kicked him several times.


Teyechea wrote that the girl was "screaming, kicking, flailing and would not listen" when he approached her with the Taser. He told staffers from the home that he was going to tell the girl to calm down and warn her that he would use the Taser if she didn't.


The girl continued swearing at the officers and after warning her again with the Taser, Teyechea applied the stun gun to her right thigh.


The girl, whom the Star is not identifying because of her age, screamed that it hurt and calmed down. Teyechea told her to comply or she would be shocked again. The girl was not injured and received no medical treatment.


Hood then drove the girl to the home, where she started acting up again and was given a sedative shot by staff members.


The Pima County Sheriff's Department is investigating the incident to determine if a crime was committed. The investigation is expected to be finished early next week.


South Tucson Police Chief Sixto Molina said he released the reports filed by Hood and Teyechea to media outlets Thursday for "clarification purposes."


"I probably should have put this out earlier, but I didn't want to in any way, shape or form prejudice the Sheriff's Department investigation," he said. "I wanted to keep out of it as much as possible, but as time went on there was some misinformation put out."


Molina confirmed that officers have had prior contact with the girl but said he couldn't provide any specific details because those reports are part of the Sheriff's Department investigation.


Teyechea has been with the department since June 1996 and Hood has been an officer since October 2003, Molina said.


On the South Tucson police force currently, sergeants and some SWAT team members have Tasers. The department is in the process of ordering more, Molina said.


The Taser administers 50,000 volts and four-thousandths of an amp. It can be used in contact with a person or through two probes connected to 21-foot wires fired out of a cartridge. The shock overrides the central nervous system and causes complete, involuntary muscle contraction.


An official with the Scottsdale company that manufactures the Taser told the Star earlier this week that the stun guns have been used on children in other incidents nationally, but they do no more harm to children than adults and often result in less-serious injuries.


Mike Storie, Teyechea's attorney, said the more facts that are shared, the better people will understand what actually occurred and why Teyechea used the Taser.


Storie said he has seen prior reports on officers' contact with the girl and that they're consistent with her behavior May 8.


"The officers tried all other means of control and they were unsuccessful," he said. "It's crucial people understand the officers did not just roll up, see a verbally abusive girl and say, 'Let's Tase her.' "


For more Arizona news, visit www.azstarnet.com or www.azfamily.com.



Just for clarification purposes, when used as a contact device, the taser only gives pain compliance...the fired probes cause dysfunction. The other option would have been dragging her out and hog-tying her. Which is worse? I suppose thats still up for debate. Would have been better for the cop to hog-tie, for the girl???

 

[psi_radar]

Autism is one developmental disability and Dennis Debbaudt is a law enforcement officer who has developed materials to train officers about handling these types of situations with minimal harm. The techniques can be used for other types of developmental disabilities as well.

:asian:

Autism is a growing phenomenon in the United States and elsewhere. My son was diagnosed with "autistic tendencies". We can only hope that the growing presence of these individuals in the population will force society to open their eyes and seriously consider how they should be cared for and treated. I don't see tasers in this vision.

 

[psi_radar]

Hood then drove the girl to the home, where she started acting up again and was given a sedative shot by staff members....


Just for clarification purposes, when used as a contact device, the taser only gives pain compliance...the fired probes cause dysfunction. The other option would have been dragging her out and hog-tying her. Which is worse? I suppose thats still up for debate. Would have been better for the cop to hog-tie, for the girl???

A better option would have been to have the staff members sedate her which they should have in the first place. The taser only served to cause her pain and temporary compliance through the pain, it didn't resolve her episode.

 

[shesulsa]

Heres some more


Hood called Sgt. Armando Teyechea for backup because in prior contacts with the girl she was combative, "fighting, biting, kicking and punching school staff and other police officers," Hood wrote. The girl is 4 feet, 7 inches tall and weighs 85 pounds....Hood was attempting to place leg restraints on the girl "to keep her from kicking the window out," he wrote, when the girl kicked him several times....

Teyechea wrote that the girl was "screaming, kicking, flailing and would not listen" when he approached her with the Taser. He told staffers from the home that he was going to tell the girl to calm down and warn her that he would use the Taser if she didn't.

The girl continued swearing at the officers and after warning her again with the Taser, Teyechea applied the stun gun to her right thigh.

The girl, whom the Star is not identifying because of her age, screamed that it hurt and calmed down. Teyechea told her to comply or she would be shocked again. The girl was not injured and received no medical treatment.

Hood then drove the girl to the home, where she started acting up again and was given a sedative shot by staff members.

The Pima County Sheriff's Department is investigating the incident to determine if a crime was committed. The investigation is expected to be finished early next week.

Molina confirmed that officers have had prior contact with the girl but said he couldn't provide any specific details because those reports are part of the Sheriff's Department investigation.

Storie said he has seen prior reports on officers' contact with the girl and that they're consistent with her behavior May 8.

"The officers tried all other means of control and they were unsuccessful," he said. "It's crucial people understand the officers did not just roll up, see a verbally abusive girl and say, 'Let's Tase her.' "

for clarification purposes, when used as a contact device, the taser only gives pain compliance...the fired probes cause dysfunction. The other option would have been dragging her out and hog-tying her. Which is worse? I suppose thats still up for debate. Would have been better for the cop to hog-tie, for the girl???

#1: He told staffers from the home that he was going to tell the girl to calm down and warn her that he would use the Taser if she didn't. Why couldn't the staffers control her? Is she in aspecial care facility or not? why aren't the staff trained to restrain her properly without calling the cops to administer legal electric shock therapy? (sorry, guys, but this happens) AND - trying to use logic on a child who is not rational is like pissing in the wind - DUH! - I tell my son all the time, if he touches the fire place he'll get burned...know what? he does it anyway, and he's 14.

#2: Hood then drove the girl to the home, where she started acting up again and was given a sedative shot by staff members. Started acting up again, huh? She probably was having a conflict with the staff or other residents at the home - typical reaction, leaving and resisting restraint and return. And if it has happened before, she might need to be moved to a higher security facility. Where's the family in all this? Could be a ward of the state.

#3: Storie said he has seen prior reports on officers' contact with the girl and that they're consistent with her behavior May 8. If they were familiar with her, couldn't they have found a better way to deal with her? given the department a head-up on these kinds of situations?

#4: Would have been better for the cop to hog-tie, for the girl?? Frankly, I think I can honestly say that I would rather arrive at a scene where my son is hog-tied than find him tazed...and I very might well find myself in that position someday.

That said....Hwarang!:jedi1:

 

[psi_radar]

http://autism.about.com/cs/civilrights/a/lawenforce.htm :asian:

Just read this shesulsa, good stuff, thanks! :asian:

 

[Tgace]

A better option would have been to have the staff members sedate her which they should have in the first place. The taser only served to cause her pain and temporary compliance through the pain, it didn't resolve her episode.

Granted...perhaps that would have been better. The officer was concerned about the thrashing and window kicking in the back of the car. Subject injured, vehicle damaged. Personally, I would have called for 2-3 more officers and an ambulance and tied her to a gurney (done it before) as this appears more Medical than Criminal. If she is really kicking, biting or unable to be contained though, the Taser is an option. Dont get me wrong, Im still not convinced this was "right", but I would say its not "criminal". Ive been Tased and while It looks bad to watch, its relatively harmless in the long-run. Id rather get Tased than OC'd. I dont think the image of 2-3 grown men wrestling, kneeling on and hog-tying a 9 yo girl would have played out well either.

 

[shesulsa]

Subject injured, vehicle damaged. Personally, I would have called for 2-3 more officers and an ambulance and tied her to a gurney (done it before) as this appears more Medical than Criminal. If she is really kicking, biting or unable to be contained though, the Taser is an option. Dont get me wrong, Im still not convinced this was "right", but I would say its not "criminal". Ive been Tased and while It looks bad to watch, its relatively harmless in the long-run. Id rather get Tased than OC'd. I dont think the image of 2-3 grown men wrestling, kneeling on and hog-tying a 9 yo girl would have played out well either.

Well noted, Tgace, well noted - that always looks bad to civilians...but...so does tasing in this case. Not sure it was criminal either - unless the hinting that this girl has escaped before and poice called before and finally tased sounds like the home is using the cops for a free electroshock treatment.."Thank You, Mr. Blue!"
I've heard orderlys joke about this kind of thing before, so...hard for me to ignore the possibility.

Guess we'll never know unless we're there, right everyone?

 

[OULobo]

I'm still not sure. The girl was 4'7" and 85lbs. He likely outwieghed her by between 100 and 150lbs and was in decent to great shape, not to mention he is a veteran on the force and if we trust the other article had a partner on hand. I know that many of the officers I have talked to have been tased and say that it hurts and causes muscle failure, but not much else damage wise, however these are all fairly big adult males in good shape, not a 9 year old developing adolecent with emotional problems. I do like Tgace's idea about the gurney and thanks to him for the follow-up.

 

[psi_radar]

Granted...perhaps that would have been better. The officer was concerned about the thrashing and window kicking in the back of the car. Subject injured, vehicle damaged. Personally, I would have called for 2-3 more officers and an ambulance and tied her to a gurney (done it before) as this appears more Medical than Criminal. If she is really kicking, biting or unable to be contained though, the Taser is an option. Dont get me wrong, I'm still not convinced this was "right", but I would say its not "criminal". Ive been Tased and while It looks bad to watch, its relatively harmless in the long-run. Id rather get Tased than OC'd. I dont think the image of 2-3 grown men wrestling, kneeling on and hog-tying a 9 yo girl would have played out well either.

For sure it's a difficult situation. I think that law enforcement isn't quite up to par when it comes to understanding these types of individuals. A year ago, here in Denver, a mentally challenged sixteen-year old boy was shot to death while weilding a knife. Problem was, the boy was pretty much rambling to himself while holding the knife, and the parents called the LEOs to diffuse the situation, since they thought he might hurt himself. Apparently the solution was to shoot him from a 30-foot distance through a screen door. The LEO doing the shooting was cleared, but let go for other reasons.

In the situation we're discussing, a restraint hold would have been warranted and effective. As a high school wrestler, my nemesis sparring partner would put me in a hold he called "the crab." I was stocky, he was long and lanky. If he had the opportunity, he would simply break me down and weave his limbs to the inside of mine, applying slight outward pressure. In a few minutes, it would be called a stalemate, and I would be exhausted. This was a guy my equal weight and strength.

An LEO with backup could simply place this girl on his lap, apply outward pressure with his thighs to lock her legs and cross his arms high under her chin, grabbing onto her shoulders while his parner called in help. She couldn't bite from this position. Then they could have waited for the errant parents, guardians, or medical care to arrive.

Perhaps the training or culture just isn't there yet. I hope it does get arrive soon, because it could be my son on the receiving end soon. :asian:

PS: I don't think this is criminal either, just a serious lack of understanding of the needs of certain people who don't fit into the mold of society's norms of behavior. It's the training that is at fault.

 

[KenpoTex]

In the situation we're discussing, a restraint hold would have been warranted and effective. As a high school wrestler, my nemesis sparring partner would put me in a hold he called "the crab." I was stocky, he was long and lanky. If he had the opportunity, he would simply break me down and weave his limbs to the inside of mine, applying slight outward pressure. In a few minutes, it would be called a stalemate, and I would be exhausted. This was a guy my equal weight and strength.

A restraint hold might have worked but it said in the report that the officer had already tried to place her in leg restraints and was unable to control her. And she apparently wasn't following the rules of a high school wrestling match where biting, kicking, etc. are banned. Something to consider: In a similar situation with an adult who was resisting in this manner the officer probably would have sprayed him/her and if that failed, used his baton. I think that her age and condition were probably the reason he chose to use the tazer (the effects of which wear off quickly and cause no lasting damage) rather than a different, and possibly more dangerous, method of force. Something else to consider is that when most people hear of someone being "tazed," they have visions of someone writhing around on the ground with two little probes stuck in them. According to the article posted, the officer used the tazer in the "stun-gun" (or contact) mode rather than actually firing the probes at her. The article said that it administered 50,000 volts of electricity. I have been "zapped" by a stun-gun that administers 200,000 volts, and other than a "holy S*** that smarts!" reaction there was no loss of muscle function (Like Tgace said, this only happens when the probes are fired), and the pain only lasted for a couple of seconds. I would much rather be zapped than sprayed with O.C. or whacked with a baton. Could someone have administered a seditive? Maybe, but do you really want to be trying to give someone an injection with a sharp needle when they are flailing around uncontrollably?