Interesting take on the Orlando incident

Discussion in 'Security and Bouncers' started by Juany118, Jul 3, 2016.

  1. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Not meaning to flame but I saw this blog post today...
    The DALE YEAGER Blog

    And again I don't mean to flame. I know there are higher end clubs that pay for audits and quality training. However I also know that way to many clubs prioritize liability first and see the "security" aspect as something simply required by insurance and/or local ordinances and as such it's an unwanted expense...at least in the US.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
  2. moonhill99

    moonhill99 Purple Belt

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    There been number of shootings at night clubs in my city and even people putting drugs in female drinks so they go to sleep and they can rape them.

    It problem that will not go away in my city. Big night clubs and raves that have lots and lots of people are not only problem for crime, shooting, rape but fires too.

    There also been number of gang shooting at night clubs in my city.

    Some night clubs are better than other night clubs.
     
  3. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    In the UK you have to be licensed and do a training course to be a door supervisor ( bouncers). You mustn't have criminal convictions, a police check is done. The courses may not be the best out there but it means no amateurs can do the doors.
    Door Supervision
     
  4. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    What city is this?
     
  5. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    I do not go to nightclubs. Simple problem, simple solution.
     
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  6. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    But the fact people are getting inside with guns is ridiculous period. People should at least be wanded before entry, purses actually searched. Make sure you have female security in the event you feel a pat down of a female is warranted.

    As for the roofie bit, it does happen, BUT usually it turns out to be the girl just didn't want to admit she let herself get drunk off her bottom. Note this doesn't justify the later crime.
     
  7. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    It goes beyond Nightclubs though. Think about wanting to catch a music act and dinner at The House of Blues, the World Cafe etc. Any High profile public venue that is also a target rich environment is a potential target.
     
  8. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    As are town and city centres, hospitals, churches, any military parade, pubs, schools, sports events, government buildings etc. They don't have to be high profile. All of these have been targeted by the PIRA in Mainland UK since the 1960s (though we've had bombing campaigns from the late 1860s from Ireland) Mostly by bombs, other than being vigilant there is little you can do to avert these attacks once they start happening. The biggest weapon you have against terrorism is intelligence, good human intelligence. You need a public that is aware and vigilant but not paranoid. Don't abdicate responsibility for your's and others safety.

    Absolutely spot on. it's a matter of course here now, has been for decades, it's accepted by everyone.
    And this is why List of terrorist incidents in Great Britain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  9. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Yeah the problem is two fold, imo, in the US.

    First profits. When I got out of the Army my first long time job was with a Security Company that did Security for everything from Corporate builds to major sports venues. They paid crap, trained crap, but it gave liability protection on the cheap.

    Second, while we scream terrorism etc. we also, almost fanatically talk about our "Rights" even when it involves Private property where the only "Rights" you have are the ones the Proprietor allows you to have. Heck people freak out over the idea of CCTV cameras in public spaces where everyone can already see ya. Though to be fair the number of terrorist attacks in the US has been low compared to the Rest of the world. What is funny, or sad, is that as much as some want to freak out over Islamic Terrorism you are 7 times more likely to fall victim to a Right Wing Terrorist attack in the US but we hesitate to call that out because most of them are Christian and we don't want to piss off the Bible belt.
     
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  10. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Personally, and I'm not being glib here, I don't go to any such venue. I'm just not into 'going' places.

    However, your point is well-taken.

    Now we come to the point in the discussion where we have to ask what the responsibility is of any public venue to provide security for guests and patrons, and what responsibility rests with the patrons and guests themselves.

    We see the basis for an argument to be made that a nightclub owes it to their patrons to provide not just security in the sense of the traditional bouncers and others who deal with your average drunks and domestics, but world-class security against potential external threats such as terrorist attacks.

    That's an interesting concept, and one which I think should be explored further. However, consider that at least in the USA (unlike, perhaps, the rest of the world), terrorist attacks on venues such as this have not traditionally been part of our defense posture. In fact, in a situation in a nightclub that involves an external threat, the response has typically been to robberies and things of that nature. In which case, the insurance companies tell their customers to cooperate, not resist. Obviously, cooperation with terrorists isn't going to work; but this level of threat has not yet been digested by private industries involved as well as their indemnification (insurance, attorneys, and such).

    Taken a step further into your proposed venues, are you suggesting that now movie theaters, supper clubs, broadway musicals, and any restaurant or community playhouse must provide world-class terrorist protection?

    And while we're talking target-rich environments, we have to also consider public and private schools and churches. Often considered 'gun free' zones, not to get political. How then are they to provide world-class terrorist protection services? At what cost? And if they provide it and fail, what are their liabilities?
     
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  11. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Who said world class security? It doesn't take much to hire some females as well or have security outside the doors or CCTV cameras monitored by one person inside. Anyone can go to Metal Detectors - Galls and buy the wands. The additional training one might need to meet certain requirements also aren't insurmountable, it's not like you are looking for someone trained in Dignitary Protection. The training in profiling threats (meaning ALL facts, not limited to perceived race ex... baggy big coat in 95 degree weather), see indicators of a potentially armed subject and even Homeland Securities active shooter guidelines amount to about 16 hours of training.

    It's not just about active shooters/terrorists incidents though. Fights start in bars often because of drug use. Regularly and randomly checking bathrooms, and having females to check the ladies room, means less drugs spreading in the venue (if a night club or similar). Just a couple weeks after Pulse there was a shooting at a SC nightclub. While the pro-gun right's lobby likes to say "mass shooting stopped by concealed carry" it was actually just a knucklehead who got into an argument with another patron and did "spray and pray" trying to hit the guy he was arguing with. Weapons and booze create shootings at these venues A LOT but we seem to not notice if its "4 injured suspect arrested" vs "40 dead suspect a muslim". I think the lack of media coverage, or our hard earned insensitivity to "everyday" violence, makes us miss the issue.

    Again its not about "world class protection" but basic protection. It's funny you mention movie theaters btw. In my area, quite often after incidents, the movie theaters will contract with security companies. They will check ladies purses, carefully look over and even wand everyone... then they let the short term contract expire, and the County I live in is only in 2nd place by $1000.00 in median income.

    And EVERY School in my County has panic buttons in every class room and every school in the State is required by Law to be compliant with Active shooter preparedness by State Law under 35 Pa. C.S. §§7101 et seq. Here is the primer that gives the schools the reference material to develop the plan, which is then reviewed.to see if it is compliant. http://www.pema.pa.gov/planningandp...nts/05900 Active Shooter Preparation 9 13.pdf

    Again it doesn't have to be "world class" security. Why? Because most "terrorists" in the US aren't "world class". With the exception of two attacks, both world trade centers have fit the "lone wolf mode". A troubled person radicalized by religion or political ideology who used skills that quite literally anyone with an internet connection can acquire. Heck most mass shootings in the US haven't actually fit the FBI definition of a terrorist act. To greatly minimize the effectiveness of these attacks it only takes a basic risk assessment, planning, and hiring staff that will be observant to potential threats before a fight breaks out vs the cute girls standing in the corner or their smart phone.
     
  12. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Nightclubs and similar venues are inherently unsafe. Crowds of people are going there with the intent to have their mind altered in one or more fashions. That's a great recipe for a problem...

    That doesn't mean there aren't ways to make things safer and prevent some problems. An effective and prepared security posture is part of that. Having a staff that can react to a problem in an appropriate and effective manner (this does not necessarily mean arming anyone or everyone on the staff), building a clientele that doesn't want problems (why do a lot of hip hop clubs have problems... or why are there different problems if a biker club decides to claim a bar?), and doing basic target hardening in a manner appropriate to the venue and acts would go a long way. Accepting that there are dangers is also an important first step...
     
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  13. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    And thats the thing. The reason why I suggested wanding, as an example, in reference to Pulse is that Orlando is NOT Disney. That is Kissimmee. Orlando is in the top 100 of US Cities for Violent Crime. But at a minimum, having security outside the doors of venues, having those in and out with an "active shooter" plan. Making sure your employees are watching for threats and not for eye candy? These aren't earth moving things. Your local police department can probably provide active shooter training basics, all you need do is ask. They LOVE "Community Oriented" photo ops like that.

    As for the "issues" with bars. Yeah been there done that. Had a bar where finally we got their license revoked to serve alcohol because of the ridiculous number of not just nuisance but violent incidents with people getting assault even shot, and in the last instance two officers being assaulted and hospitalized when all they were doing was trying to render aid to the shooting victim. But this is where the "profit motive" in my first post comes in. Once you get that kind of clientele you are stuck with it. Hence when an acquaintance opened a bar in the same town, he didn't want that crap... no dollar drafts, no plastic bottle alcohol and when you sneeze wrong, if you don't do EXACTLY what staff say and when they say it, they don't just toss you out, they call 911 as they are doing it.
     
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  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Night clubs are committed to patron saftey and will do everything they can to achieve that.

    Unless it requires money or effort.
     
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  15. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    One of the things that happened here was to stop calling security at clubs and pubs 'bouncers'. they are door supervisors now, it may sound like semantics but the idea is to stop the idea that it was just a minimum wage deadbeat job and make people realise you had to be trained as well as licensed to do the job.
    It doesn't have to be 'world class' security whatever that means . What happens here is that the doormen/women are trained and work well with the police. Using radios they can inform other p[remises of trouble makers etc. CCTV works well protecting everyone from false allegations, as proof in court and to keep a good eye on all parts of the premises. Door supervisors are now a vital part of security and are considered as being very professional.
    Training Door Supervisor Training
     
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  16. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

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    Back in the day, I used to be a bouncer, and while I was just an undergraduate jock *ahem* and while I did spend a significant amount o my work shift *ahem* admiring the clientele, our bar owner, no idiot, knew that the proper role of the security team was to be very much seen -- but not to be seen doing anything overt. Meaning, keep disputes down low, take the discussions outside and always try to keep them at the discussion level, etc. We did not lay hands on people unless everything else had failed after being attempted.

    That being said, I'm thinking about the O/P and the security walk-up... I wish we would have had one of those. We did have a double-door system, but it was primarily for environmental purposes, not security, but we used it that way from time to time. Wanding was never an issue, it just wasn't. I had a sawed-off shotgun pulled on me in the parking lot once, which was sphincter-tightening, but the guy just told me that he was looking for someone else, so he told me to go away. I did, and called the cops immediately of course.

    Things have changed in the States muchly since 1989, and that's a straight fact.
     
  17. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    It is far more difficult to provide security and prevent crime today than in the past.
    Heaven forbid, somebody might get their feelings hurt. Can't very well have that.
     
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  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ironically the number used to control crowds here has not changed in 20 years. Which I 1 guard for the first fifty people and 2 for each hundred after.

    Yet the methods used to control crowds has.
     
  19. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    You may not understand the liability a company takes on itself when it starts to do that kind of screening.

    If they fail, they get sued because they didn't do it well enough.

    If they violate privacy laws or are even accused of it when doing their screening, they get sued again.

    And typically, their insurance companies, which indemnify them, won't permit them to even get started down this path.

    Regardless, I'm not sure how wands and security at the door helps when the shooting takes place in the parking lot.

    They do not do that here, in my experience. I don't go to the movies much; couple times a year when my wife makes me. But I've never seen any such thing in the US.

    Interesting. I had no idea.

    As I said, even basic security takes a private company down a path that in many cases, I do not believe their insurance companies would permit.

    And that's ignoring the cost of all this security - at any level. I see mall security in large malls - a couple guys. I do not see security at the local Radio Shack, or the Walgreens drug store, or the city library, or the grocery store, or the movie theatre, or ... etc. Who pays for all this security, all these security people?

    FYI, I used to work in law enforcement and I've even been a private security guard (pay is minimum wage, it consists of people moving up and in between jobs and morons who cannot find work because they have zero skills). I think you have an undeveloped concept that's not very workable in real life.

    I get that the world is changing. I get that security and awareness are becoming more and more important. I don't think we're going to get the level of security that you think we need, not even a low-level type. It's just not going to happen.
     
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  20. Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

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    Well like I said, you need a to look at your unique security needs. I think it all starts with the audit by an independent company then on from there. Maybe wands aren't needed, but in a violent place like Orlando I think it would be a smart idea.
     

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