Information on Dr. Gyi???

[Cebu West]

Tgace quote

Maybe we could put together some questions here and Mr. Hartman could see if Mr. Gyi would be interested in answering them and Tim could post the replies.....

Maybe you don't get it. We're not interested. This is your agenda, not Tim Hartman's or the WMAA.

 

[Rob Broad]

As someone who has been fortunate to train with Mr. Hartman on several occaisons I have always found him to be very straight forward and easy to get along with. He made an offer, and rescinded it after he was sent the guidlines Tgace wanted to use. If I am correct the invitation was for Tgace to attend the seminar and see what Dr. Gyi had to offer, not bringing someone else along and recording things.

Honestly I say too bad if people aren't happy with Mr. Hartman rescinding his offer. He has to look at things from many sides, and one of them is he has an obligation to every other person attending the seminar to make sure they have the best event possible. I am quite sure someone wanting to have a minor interogation would put a major wet blanket on a good event.

It is amazing how much energy has been spent on this matter whether he is guilty of lying or part of one of the greatest cover ups in military history. It really doesn't matter people either go with an open mind, or they don't. It amazes me to see americans who always pride themselves with innocent until proven guilty, go on a witch hunt, I guess Dr. Gyi should be thankful it isn't Salem in the 1800's.

 

[Tgace]

This is your agenda, not Tim Hartman's or the WMAA.

Facts apparently havent been on the "agenda" for a while...:shrug:

 

[tradrockrat]

It is amazing how much energy has been spent on this matter whether he is guilty of lying or part of one of the greatest cover ups in military history. It really doesn't matter people either go with an open mind, or they don't. It amazes me to see americans who always pride themselves with innocent until proven guilty, go on a witch hunt, I guess Dr. Gyi should be thankful it isn't Salem in the 1800's.

Uh...1692. The Salem trials were in 1692.

As for Gyi and his guilt or innocence. Many people have asked him to prove his innocence - you are correct in that those people often assume his guilt. However, please remember that HIS entire life's work in martial arts has been about honoring Veterans. He founded the ABA to do this. He hosted both national tournies on Veterans and Memorial day. He intertwined his martial arts life inseperably with his "service" in the military. He preached that they were one and the same. Bando was supposed to be all about practicality on the battlefeild, and he was supposed to be living proof of its effectivness. Most of the origional members of the ABA were Vietnam Vets - for real. IMHO, Just as we owe Gyi for bringing his version of Bando to America, Gyi owes us for our years of trust in him and his word. HE created this environment of respect and loyalty to Veterans, HE instilled our desire to honor these brave men and women. HE founded an organization that a 17 year old boy joined and believed in with all his heart and soul. He did this. And now we find that this man may have lied all along. I think we can be forgiven for demanding that he lay the rumors to rest - one way or another.

This could have been easily dealt with several years ago if Gyi had just pulled out one single bit of paperwork or proof that he served - an ID, discharge papers, anything. To date he has not. Why won't he put this to rest? It doesn't make sense that a soldier would let it go this far and risk dishonoring all that he believes in. All I want is a yes or no and one piece of proof.

 

[arnisador]

Speaking of respect--one thing that's quite salient to those of us in Modern Arnis is how very, very respectful and laudatory his comments about the late Prof. Presas have been. He was asked by Prof. Presas to help guide the Professsor's students and he has taken that duty very seriously and very solemnly. I respect him and value him for that.

Again, I wish it was a simple black and white matter, but I know it's not. On this issue, though, he's won me--he's been helpful, dedicated, to those of us carrying on an art that isn't even his. I do appreciate him bringing Bando to the States, but this matters even more to me.

I work on a USAF base and his actions in that regard distress me. It's cognitive dissonance, and I'm dealing with it as best I can.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

There seem to be a few different points being made in the last several posts here, and it's leading to some confusion on my part. Here's what I have come to understand from these posts. All of this is clearly posted in the thread.

1. Tgace has NO desire to train with Gyi.
2. He also wants to question Gyi about his military career and the facts surounding tham - and only that.
3. He was invited to do so by Mr. Hartman.
4. He apparently recommended some specific strategies to record these questions - ie a witness.
5. Mr. Hartman has decided that it would be unwise to subject his invited guest to these questions.


Am I right so far?

Tim invited TGace to swing by and meet Gyi for himself. According to Tim a PM sent by TGace stipulated conditions for the meeting. TGace was going to bring a witness and video the Q/A session. He was also going to ask for photo identification.

To accept an invitiation and then later stipulate the conditions of the meeting is, at best, rude. I can understand why Tim retracted his offer...and it isn't a "lack of nerve." If anyone was going to rake one of my guests over the coals, I'd withdraw the invitation as well.

It appears to me that Tim offered this with a spirit of generosity. TGace's conditions for the meeting put Tim in an impossible position. Seriously, can anyone honestly expect a seminar host to expose his guest to this?

If anyone has a problem with Gyi, they can boycott his seminars. Attempting to seek him out and humiliate him serves nothing other than to massage the ego and salve the obsessions of the inquisitor.

Wiley Quixote needs to let this go.


Regards,


Steve

 

[tradrockrat]

On this issue, though, he's won me--he's been helpful, dedicated, to those of us carrying on an art that isn't even his. I do appreciate him bringing Bando to the States, but this matters even more to me.

I work on a USAF base and his actions in that regard distress me. It's cognitive dissonance, and I'm dealing with it as best I can.

And that, in a nut shell, is why I stated earlier that I don't see a problem with others attending his seminars even though I won't. We are all approaching this from our individual backgrounds and experiences. Arnisador, you make a very valid point. Some people simply don't care about Gyi's military history. It isn't relevant to them. Who am I to decide your actions? Still, the ABA is an organization that I don't think anyone should join until this is resolved precisely because it is involved in honoring Veterans and it is built upon the idea that Gyi was a soldier. I won't hate a person for joining, but I think you'd be making a mistake.

 

[Tgace]

No conditions were "stipulated". I stated what I wanted to do. There was every opportunity to say "you are welcome to do X. But I dont want you to do Z". No such statement was made. As a matter of fact the conversation ended with "well I will talk to Mr. Gyi and get back to you". There wasnt even a mention of these "offensive conditions". So Mr. Hartman made the offer "in the spirit of generosity"? Based on what was going on in this thread when that offer was made. What do you think the point of that offer was? "Well I see you dont believe Mr. Gyi's claims. Why dont you come to the seminar and watch him (but dont ask him any questions) before you judge him?" How can I change my opinion on this issue without directly asking him some pointed questions. What was the whole "point" of this offer???

Heres the original offer....

Tom-
Seeing that you are here in Buffalo, why don’t you come to the seminar meet the man and report back to MT. I feel that it is unfair for people to attack him without hearing his side of the story. After all as a cop aren’t you suppose to get ALL sides of the story before passing judgment?

What type of questions would have been acceptable?

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Then why don't you post your PM and let everyone else judge for themselves?

 

[Tgace]

Because I cleaned out my old PM's. Why dont you post it?

 

[Tgace]

Disregard...a copy of it was on the PM you returned to me.

When, where and under what conditions would you like to do this? I have no "personal" issue with Mr. Gyi and have no interest in embarrassing or showing him disrespect in a public place. If he is aware that he is going to be questioned and is willing to answer those questions I will be there. I do not want to ambush the man at your seminar. My only interest in this matter is the military issue. Having served myself, having a close friend in Iraq right now and having stood at the grave of a soldier whom I respected and knew fairly well these issues trouble me.

Be aware I will do such things as bringing a witness, I will be asking Mr. Gyi if he is willing to show me any personal photo identification, ask if he minds if our conversation is recorded and I will be taking notes.

Due to my schedule of working at night and sleeping most of the day. If you insist on phone contact it will probably be easier if you call me. My cell # is (716) 818-XXXX. The best times to call are between 4-10 PM or if you are a night owl 1230-7 AM.

Tom Gerace

Granted I did say "I will" instead of "I plan on" or "would like to". The only reason I mentioned it was to make you aware of my intentions and give you the opportunity to set your conditions. You had every opportunity to say no. The first question was how YOU wanted to do this.

 

[RickRed]

Disregard...a copy of it was on the PM you returned to me.

Granted I did say "I will" instead of "I plan on" or "would like to". The only reason I mentioned it was to make you aware of my intentions and give you the opportunity to set your conditions. You had every opportunity to say no. The first question was how YOU wanted to do this.

If Tim can verify that this is the PM it doesn't look like much disrespect or agenda to me. Especially after Tim said the come to the seminar and "meet the man" and then "report back to MT"....I am assuming about TGace's interest in Gyi's military record - which is pretty clear from the posts.

I looked up cognetive dissonance:

"Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them. Neighbour (1992) makes the generation of appropriate dissonance into a major feature of tutorial (and other) teaching: he shows how to drive this kind of intellectual wedge between learners' current beliefs and "reality"."

So if anyone is having some adjustment problems it would be all the people that are trying to say that a man who is a good martial artist, but a lier is okay. He is using his lies to market himself in martial arts. That is a direct link IMO. Not to mention the disrespectful use of a dead soldiers name as an alias so that anything the dead man did can be linked, wrongly, to him.....

Based on the info on cognitive dissonance, the one driving the wedge between belief and reality seems to be Tom and the ones experiencing discomfort are everyone that is accusing him of having a hidden agenda or an attitude.

Does anyone here actually teach martial arts as a way to improve as person? If so, I would think that associating with someone that lies and assumes a deadman's name would not be someone to associate with.

 

[Flatlander]

Well, we seem to be moving away from "Information on Dr. Gyi", and more toward "information on Tim and Tom's dialogue regarding Dr. Gyi", as well as, "the merits of discussing Dr. Gyi." I respectfully ask that we try to limit this now to information specifically pertaining to Dr. Gyi's history and claims, and evidence in support or counter to the information being made available. Please take the Tim/Tom discussion private.

 

[Tgace]

Absolutely Dan. I seem to have run out of everything I could find, short of paying money for records, and havent been able to find anything that supports his claims. If anybody has anything that I havent posted please bring it out.

 

[Don Roley]

This from a ninja! Aren't Hatsumi's claims...special?

The above was left in my reputation without being signed. And I think it points out just how I look at this.

You see, Hatsumi is quite willing to set out proof for his personal training history. If you want proof that he trained under the teacher he says, he is quite able and willing to trot out the proof.

Bob said that old people are special about showing thier IDs. Well, I do not think that carding someone buying beer and this type of situation are the same.

I am talking about personal training history. I am not talking about something that happened in the 15th century. Anyone should be able to prove their own training and experiences if they make the claim. I can. And it has been my experience that people who make claims that are true are quite happy to back up what they say.

I have delt with arts that claim their 16th century founder was given a scroll by the ghost of Japan's greatest general, others that claim the founder was taught by tengu goblins and some that claim to have started from people that were only legends and never existed. Legends do build up over time. But the guys facing me in the dojo were always straight up about themselves with me. They were not making up stories to make themselves look good but passing along what they were taught (legend and all) to the best of their ability.

I mean....folks... we are talking about pulling out his wallet and opening it to his driver's liscense. That is not difficult. I would do it if I made claims on a seminar flyer.

There are so many things that are wrong with the story. There is no record AT ALL that the Ghurkas recruited in Burma as Gyi claims. I honestly think that Bruce Calkins makes more believable claims than Gyi.

So you see how I can trust Masaaki Hatsumi and not Gyi. You may not be sure that the history of his art is legend or not, but there is no doubt that all of his claims involving his own experiences are true. We can't say that about Gyi.

 

[Tgace]

My apologies for the link that had those offensive words in it...

Heres a clean version.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041015023935/http://www.phonyveterans.com/Gyi.html

A police check was run on Dr. Gyi recently. It came back showing Gyi's birthdate as 1936 not 1930 or 1933. We also checked with the University of Ohio and found Dr. Gyi's birth date to be 1936.

Mr. Lynn Thompson cut a deal with Dr. Gyi where Dr. Gyi would test Cold Steels kukri knives. If Gyi approved of the new kukri then there would be contracts made and Gyi would recieve 2.5% of each knife made that had American Bando Association symbol on the knife. Lynn started running wild advertisements in the Cold Steel catalogs about the kukri and Dr. Gyi and Gyi being a famed Ghurkha.

Is that true? I used to have some cold steel catalogs featuring the kukri but cant find any of them now.

 

[tradrockrat]

Is that true? I used to have some cold steel catalogs featuring the kukri but cant find any of them now.

Yup, it's true. The owner went to the Kukri clinic Gyi taught in Vegas several years ago and sealed the deal. He had previously shown Gyi his other "kukris" he sold, but they were peices of garbage that were WAY to thin to work as a kukri should. Gyi gave him some technical advice about thickness and weighting, and the new "ABA Approved" version was born. The symbol is right up next to the grip.


EDIT: I do not know the actual monetary deal they made. It could be that he made this specific deal, but i don't know. All I know is that he made A deal.

 

[Tgace]

Just as a little supporting research...
The man who posted this e-mail on the pownetwork....
http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies117.htm

After reading American Legion Magazine article, Men of Dishonor by Dan Allsup I felt compelled to write to your website.

I came from a long line of Ohio hill men who honorably served their country in conflicts ranging from the Civil War to Korea. I currently have a young cousin serving with the 82nd Airborne. As for myself, I served during the Vietnam War aboard a large Navy ammunition ship, U.S.S. Butte AE 27 chock-full from bow to stern - with every form of bullet and explosive and incendiary ordnance then in the inventories of the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps. Duty was nerve-racking about this floating arsenal, a serious fire or accidental detonation could have resulted in a fireball visible and felt 100 miles away on South or North Vietnam's coastline.

In 1984 I started to train the martial system of Bando in Athens Ohio. I met Maung Gyi in a small do-jo the same year, showing his newly required military medals. I was impressed as he had many more than I. Gyi was quite famous in Athens as a world-class martial artist, ********ter and death merchant. Many in the hills had heard of his military exploits and stories...

Is found to be a real person....
http://www.usabando.com/AboutUs/Instructors/kevinmartin.htm
Still has a web page on usabando.com

http://www.homeofheroes.com/verify/

There is NO dishonor in NOT having served in a combat zone, or in having served in a rear echelon capacity during time of war...or for that matter...even in time of peace. As Americans we owe our deepest gratitude and respect to ALL who serve, regardless of when or where, or what their job may be. It is appropriate to honor every veteran for his or her service, whether their uniform is devoid of medals or emblazoned with them.

In the same regard, every veteran has a responsibility to honor all who have gone before, and those who will follow after. We do this by being proud of our service, content in our accomplishments, and honest in the way we present ourselves. The fakes, phonies, and the wannabes tend to fall into four categories:

1. MEDAL OF HONOR IMPOSTORS - This is the very WORST kind of phony. At least once a month we are contacted through this website regarding men who are falsely presenting themselves as recipients of our Nation's highest military award.
2. PRISONER OF WAR IMPOSTORS - Prisoners of War should be among our most honored citizens--men and women who have sacrificed their own freedom in the process of defending freedom for others. Those who falsely present themselves as former POWs have stooped to the lowest levels imaginable.
3. WANNABE HEROES - There is no shame in being a clerk, a driver, or holding some other menial non-combat position in time of war. Often called REMFs, those who served in relatively safe areas were NOT always safe. More than one clerk's name is on The Wall in Washington, D.C. Some who served in these roles, however, find themselves caught up in the all-too-common game of Veteran one-up-manship. To compete, or for whatever other reason, they award themselves medals never earned.
4. WANNABE VETERANS - Who would have believed in the 1970s that one day, it would be in vogue to be a Vietnam Veteran. Sadly, today, there are literally thousands of men (and women) who claim to be Vietnam Veterans who NEVER EVEN SERVED in the military.

The phonies who fit into these categories are not limited to Vietnam Veterans, it is a problem across the generations. Recently we received word of a WWII veteran, a kindly man in his 80s, who was falsely presenting himself as a Medal of Honor recipient on the Cruise Lines.

 

[Rob Broad]

Evidently I struck a nerve somewhere because this and a negative were placed in Rep Points " "too bad...." how rude..."

What I find rude is when someone doesn't leave a name when they post feedback whether positive or negative. I have no problem when someone doesn't agree with what I say, but atleast have the parts to sign your name.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.army.mil/soldiers/may2000/pdfs/fitness.pdf

Retired Gurkha soldier Dr. Maung Gyi leads rangers in knife practice. War clubs and walking sticks also came into play during the field test.