In the "Nor"Shadow of a lie

[Cruentus]

Hello.

I just thought I would disclose that your response to Lemont Norshadow won't be able to be addressed by "Lemont" because Lemont is not a real person.

Lemont was a shared account by at least 2 or more of Dr. Jerome Barber's students. This was disclosed at the Symposium over the weekend to Myself, Rich Parsons, and Tim Hartman. Being that Rich is a moderator and bound by contract to report account violations, Rich had to report this activity. It looks that the administrators of this forum then decided to "Ban" the Norshadow account (this conclusion is based on the banned under Norshadows name here). Rightfully so, given that account activity such as this is against the rules.

It is my understanding, however, that who ever wrote the posts here under lemont can sign up with his own account.

So, hopefully whoever addressed you in this thread under the lemont name will be willing to sign up with their own account under their own name. It's just always nice to know who your having a discussion with.....

wouldn't you agree?

Your Friend in the arts,
Paul Janulis
:asian:

 

[bloodwood]

Paul
This is a very interesting turn of events. I would guess that DrB had a hand in this by what you're saying and that will not due his reputation any good. Norshadow was very outspoken and a Big defender of DrB (how convenient). Now that you have let the cat out of the bag, how about filling us in on the details as to how this discovery came about. There are several people on MT that have had run ins with Lamont, and I'm sure would like the low down on this deception. Does MAO know yet? How about Dan? This should be a hot potato. Time for some people to start treading water. :sadsong: :iws:

 

[Cruentus]

I'm not sure I am the best person to fill in details here. Plus, that really isn't the context of this thread.

The "Lemont" thing was apparently some kind of a joke of some sort that Dr. Barber, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren, Tim Kashino, and possibly some of Dr. B's students were in on.

The problem here is, I am not sure what the puchline was, or who the joke was on, or what the point of the whole thing was. I know what I saw and experienced, but the reality is that I am confused myself as to what the point was entirely.

So perhaps it would be best if you addressed the question to Dr. Barber himself. I would do it in a seperate thread also. I am sure that Dr. B can explain the situation much better then I could.

Thanks,
PAUL
:asian:

 

[Red Blade]

Doesn't Dr. Barber have control of his students? Also, why would Tom Bolden be involved?

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi Paul:

Please check your facts before making statements/assumptions such as the one below. Until I entered that room, I had no idea who Lamont Norshadow was and in fact I believe I responded to him a few times myself. I was going to dinner with Dr. Barber, Punong Guro Bolden, Guro Kashino and the other folks you mentioned so I did need to find out where we were going and where my ride to dinner was.

In all truth, I'm not sure I understand anyone's interest in this for 2 reasons. First, it seems as though the moderators/administrators handled the situation very rapidly and to their satisfaction.

Secondly, if you have issue with statements that were made by whoever was posting under the screenname Lamont Norshadow, then argue your points based upon the facts. It really shouldn't matter who the person is.

In truth, anyone can remain anonymous on an internet forum such as this if they wish by a variety of methods. It is easy. So the fact that the Norshadow1 screename turned out to be multiple people posting on one account is truly a non-issue.

How do I know that's you typing Paul? How do you know this is me? How do I know someone isn't calling you on the phone and telling you what to say here? How do you know someone isn't asking someone to post pre-written responses via e-mail? It's pointless and it seems that if that is the heart of what's bothering anyone, they are not going to be satisfied regardless of explanations.

More likely it seems to me that the Norshadow screenname made some postings which upset some people because they were closer to the mark or more honest than some people would prefer and that is what is at the heart of some folks' concern about this.

Thanks,

Richard Curren

Originally posted by PAUL
I'm not sure I am the best person to fill in details here. Plus, that really isn't the context of this thread.

The "Lemont" thing was apparently some kind of a joke of some sort that Dr. Barber, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren, Tim Kashino, and possibly some of Dr. B's students were in on.

The problem here is, I am not sure what the puchline was, or who the joke was on, or what the point of the whole thing was. I know what I saw and experienced, but the reality is that I am confused myself as to what the point was entirely.

So perhaps it would be best if you addressed the question to Dr. Barber himself. I would do it in a seperate thread also. I am sure that Dr. B can explain the situation much better then I could.

Thanks,
PAUL
:asian:

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi Red Blade:

Actually my answer to your question is "No, Dr. Barber doesn't control his students." Why? He doesn't have to. Personally, I always do my best to ensure that I do everything I can to honor and respect Dr. Barber as a teacher, friend and mentor and the art that he's been kind enough to entrust me with the responsibility of learning.

Each of us is an individual who grows in an individual direction. For myself, I don't need Dr. Barber to control my actions as he's taught me properly on how to conduct myself.

As for Punong Guro Bolden, I don't know if he was "involved" or just going to dinner like myself. Why don't you ask him yourself? I believe you can contact him through the American Modern Arnis Associates web site here:
http://www.americanarnis.com

Thanks,

Richard Curren

PS: To bring up a point from my earlier post, how does anyone know who you are Red Blade, since you continue to remain anonymous to the best of my knowledge? Why couldn't you be multiple people posting under one screen name? Perhaps we should investigate?

RSC

Originally posted by Red Blade
Doesn't Dr. Barber have control of his students? Also, why would Tom Bolden be involved?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:

Thread spun off from others. Please confine the "NorShadow" discussion here.

The fact that Norshadow wasn't who he claimed has been very evident to us for months due to various interesting coincidences. As it stands right now, we are currently examining the evidence and will be issuing a full disclosure shortly.

In the mean time, the "Norshadow" account has been banned to prevent the liar from accessing MartialTalk again.

Liar? Yes. As to the ID (or claimed ID) we have than on file for many members, but not all. Those found to be falsifying it will be dealt with accordingly.

:asian:

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi Mr. Hubbard:

Note: I've taken an interest in this thread since my name became connected with it based on an incorrect assumption by another member. Also there was some curiousity about why I don't think this "revelation" matters. But now, I'm here so I might as well do like everyone else and say what I want to.

You said:

"Just want to keep things contained while the villians sweat out their exposure"

Villains? As an internet professional who managed the set up and moderates a forum of about 60,000 members, I can say from some experience, I'm not sure villain is the proper word.

This sort of thing happens all of the time on forums and in my opinion, there's nothing wrong with it. On the internet, information is the key, not identity. I'm sure you must realize this as the Admin on this site. Was the information Norshadow1 posted correct? I truly can't see the problem here as there is absolutely no way on earth for any internet Forum Administrator to do anything about this situation.

I say again, how do you know this is Richard Curren speaking and not some other person? All you have to go by is an IP address and the bio information that has been given to you by the member. Even the response e-mail can be set up by one person for another. I could be letting someone use my computer to type their responses. The same thing could hold true for Red Blade, Bloodwood, Bob Hubbard, Paul Janulis or anyone else. Therefore if we've established that there is no real way to determine identity on the internet, then the only thing you have to go by is the information and its veracity.

As much as I enjoy using them, internet forums are a joke when it comes to establishing identity. If they were'nt we wouldn't have the problems with internet predators we have today. It is the nature of the beast of a totally free exchange of information.

As for Norshadow1, I agreed with many of the things that screenname posted and disagreed with some. Do I feel cheated or slighted because I now discover that person was multiple people. No, I didn't know who it was in the first place so what difference does it make? I think that if you don't separate internet persona from person, you aren't quite right in the head.

I say good for any of the people online and on this Forum who are doing this (I'm positive there are others), anonymity is an advantage of the internet and I suspect that if people didn't feel that it was necessary to post anonymously due to the prejudice that connecting a person with an internet persona can garner, they wouldn't go to the efforts to do it.

It seems to me there is another issue here that someone (some people?) has that they are not willing to make public. Otherwise I can't see what the big deal is.

These are my opinions so if you disagree, take them up with me.

Thanks,

Richard Curren (or is it? )

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Nah...can't disagree with most of the points you made. I can verify certain things with the information I have at hand. Supenas of ISPs can usually get more information, but that steps usually not taken due to the fact that to lie is not illegal. (If it was, we'd have no 'leaders')

Short of requiring a creditcard to verify ID (like the adult sites do) theres not much we can do given out operating budgets.

I verify things a certain way. Some are technical. Some are personal. I havent met you, but Tim, Rich, and Paul have. I have met them, they verify you do 'exist' so thats good enough for me.

The problem with "Norshadow" is that his existance as a person was vouched for by Dr. Barber. The banter that occured at times was that of an old friend with some closeness. So, based on that, Dr.B. was aware of the duplicity.

The question of "Was Jerome Barber also Lamont Norshadow?" however is not one easily answered. Who were the "Norshadows" will never be known fully. The fact that there was more than 1 person involved however is very much a fact.


Richard,
I can't say for certainty that you didn't know about things. (Man do I ever wish I was a Sith..I could just read minds from miles away...heh) Signs that are apparent in a face to face are invisible on the internet.
I can however very strongly state that you were not him.

Peace.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

I'm going to address a few points...

1. I didn't start this thread, just to let you know. In the thread "The basic problem of Modern Arnis and the future" was where this started. Dan McConnell (MAO) had addressed "Lemont" on Friday, when I was on my way up to Buffalo. I was simply letting him know that Norshadow was not a real person, and what had occured. Who ever wrote what MAO had addressed under the "Lemont" alias could come on line with there own account to continue the conversation. Then Bloodwood asked for details, and I explained what happened, who seemed to be "in" on it, and that Dr. Barber is really the one who should explain everything.

I understand that Bob moved this to a seperate thread; and that this is the right thing to do. I just thought I would tell you this so you don't think that I started a thread on this subject. I merely was responding to someone else.

2. I don't need to "check my facts" on what happend. I was there. All I know is Tim Hartman, Rich Parsons, and I walk into a private room with Dr. B and Tom Bolden. You, Tim Kashino, and one other student, the "Largo-Mano" guy (Kevin maybe?) were there already. The two Serrada Eskrima guys also followed us to the room, but it was clear that they had no idea what was going on, so they had nothing to do with this "Lemont" business. Then Dr. Barber disclosed that "Lemont" was actually 2 or more of his students sharing an account. Then, there was that largo Mano Demo. Then we all left.

All I know is what I saw; I don't know to what level people were involved, all I know is that it appears that the people I previously mentioned were "in" on it. Maybe they weren't. Really, Dr. Barber is the one who should explain all this. This was his deal.

I just disclosed who appeared to be involved, and I asked Bloodwood to address Dr. Barber for some answers. I thought this was the fair thing to do, given the circumstance.

Regarding you....O.K. you explained your position. That you weren't actually involved. This is fair, so now lets let those who were explain what the whole point was, and answer questions accordingly.

3. Regarding "Identity": Yes it is true, people can lie about there identity on the net. This is ashame. All we can do is watch out the best we can, and hope that people will be honest enough, and that people will have the balls to not lie about their identities.

Also, there is a big difference between taking a surname and saying, "I am choosing to state my opinions, but not to disclose who I am at this time," and taking a surname and letting multiple people collaborate together, all acting like the same person, to manipulate other people. One is honest, the other is not. This is a very simple distinction.

I can respect one not wanting an identity known, even though I do not operate this way, and I post my identity freely. It's the lying part that I don't like.

4. Just for the record, I am not really "upset" about anything that was said, I am just having a difficult time understanding the point, or motive behind all of the nonsense. I guess it was a joke, or something, but on who? Regarding what? Where's the big punchline? I have no idea, and I am very confused. So, when questioned, I really didn't have an answer.

So, Richard, I really don't have much to say, and I am not trying to bad-mouth anyone, I am just waiting to learn what the point of all this was. I'm sure others are awaiting an answer as well......

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Red Blade
Doesn't Dr. Barber have control of his students? Also, why would Tom Bolden be involved?

Do you have "control" over your staudents?

Tom Bolden was not involved, he merely witnessed an "audition"
as did Rich Parsons.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
I'm not sure I am the best person to fill in details here. Plus, that really isn't the context of this thread.

The "Lemont" thing was apparently some kind of a joke of some sort that Dr. Barber, Tom Bolden, Richard Curren, Tim Kashino, and possibly some of Dr. B's students were in on.

The problem here is, I am not sure what the puchline was, or who the joke was on, or what the point of the whole thing was. I know what I saw and experienced, but the reality is that I am confused myself as to what the point was entirely.

So perhaps it would be best if you addressed the question to Dr. Barber himself. I would do it in a seperate thread also. I am sure that Dr. B can explain the situation much better then I could.

Thanks,
PAUL
:asian:

Thanks for the directing the question to me, but have you asked Mr. Hartman, why he had you take the floor when the matter of the audition was between himself and Lamont (Keith) and it involved some private discussions that I was not privy to until very late in the exchange process.

You folks do not really want the full explaination so don't ask for it.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Thanks for the directing the question to me, but have you asked Mr. Hartman, why he had you take the floor when the matter of the audition was between himself and Lamont (Keith) and it involved some private discussions that I was not privy to until very late in the exchange process.

You folks do not really want the full explaination so don't ask for it.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

To answer your question regarding Tim not going to the floor for the demonstration:

Since Remy's passing, Tim is my primary instructor for Modern Arnis. He is also a high ranking Datu. No offense here, but given his status, I felt that it was almost disrespectful to ask him to get on the floor with someone who is very much his junior to uke for a demonstration. How would you have felt if I brought in one of my students to demonstrate something, and I asked Mr. Bolden to be a uke in a demonstration? See what I mean....it doesn't exactly fit.

Since I claim no status, it was only appropriate for me to get on the floor.

I said some jokes, and I tried to keep it light, but the reality is it was my duty to go on the floor in his place. I didn't need to question Tim on it; I was fullfilling my duty.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood
Paul
This is a very interesting turn of events. I would guess that DrB had a hand in this by what you're saying and that will not due his reputation any good. Norshadow was very outspoken and a Big defender of DrB (how convenient). Now that you have let the cat out of the bag, how about filling us in on the details as to how this discovery came about. There are several people on MT that have had run ins with Lamont, and I'm sure would like the low down on this deception. Does MAO know yet? How about Dan? This should be a hot potato. Time for some people to start treading water. :sadsong: :iws:

Hey Blood-boy,

In this case your guess would be wrong! I got involved late in the midst of a private exchange. As for my reputation, I'll put it up against yours at any point in time, as soon as I know your real name.

There was never any attempt to make a secret of Norshadow's association with me nor did I deny knowing him. So he used a screen name, so what, don't you?

There was no discovery, no uncovering of secret information...
Lamont (Keith) choose to reveal his true identity. He also gave his friend and fellow training partner the use of the ID because Tim Kashino's log-ons were always dis-continued because they had a .mil extenstion. You will have to discuss that with Bob Hubbard and Rich Parsons as to why .mil is not allowed on the MTC.

As for treading water... I doubt it. My students are free to do what they feel is appropriate so long as they do not slander or injure someone's character. As Norshadow, Keith, never slandered anyone! The issue was between Mr. Hartman and Keith. It involved a guessing situation in which Mr. Hartman among others was wrong in what they suspected. Too bad, but it happens and if Hartman had asked me - directly - I would have told him that his speculation was incorrect. In addition he would have been incorrect for quite a long time more if Keith had decided to retain the Norshadow identity.

The situation was kept away from the Symposium participants and it should have been kept waway from the forum membership. It was because the "audition" did not go well for the Hartman side and the "secret" was revealed, not discovered, that the thread was promolgated. As for an explaination... maybe, if Keith decides to give it... as for me, I witnessed the "audition" and it confirmed all of my previous comments and beliefs. Tim Hartman, not Paul Janulis, should have been on the floor with Norshadow (Keith). Paul was pushed out on the floor and was taken totally by surprise when he was told by Mr. Hartman to work with Keith. That's all I have to say on the matter.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by DoctorB
There was no discovery, no uncovering of secret information...
Lamont (Keith) choose to reveal his true identity and he had given his friend and ffellow training partner the use of the ID because Tim Kashino's log-ons were always dis-continued because they had a .mil extenstion. You will have to discuss that with Bob Hubbard and Rich Parsons as to why .mil is not allowed on the MTC.

There are a few bits here I want to address:

1- .mil is not blocked by this site, the server, or our datacenter. We do infact have members connecting from DoD sites all over the world, Japan and Germany being 2 major locations.

2- Tims logons being disconected. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first I'm hearing of a problem. Certainly, there is no reference to the name "Tim Kashino" in my email archives (which go back to 1994). So if he had problems, I don't remember being told about them, and there is no email indicating such.

3. Sharing of accounts is not encouraged, and if you choose to do so, you are responsible for what is posted under your account. We have banned people in the past for this.

Account Policy:
1- One account per member
2- Keep your account information private (password).
3- Purposefully violating the security of the forum or allowing someone else to use your account may result in suspension or ban.

4. False Identity. - While it is not 100% possible to verify an ID, the simple fact is that it is our requirement that -we- (the MT staff) at least have an ID on file, According to "Norshadow"s account his name is "Lamont NorShadow". So that is by itself a violation of this forums rules and policies.

I will avoid the obvious comments about the disrespect shown to this forum and myself by those involved.

There is more on the technical side, however we are still examining information as we try to determine just how many "NorShadows" there were.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB
. . .
There was no discovery, no uncovering of secret information...
Lamont (Keith) choose to reveal his true identity. He also gave his friend and fellow training partner the use of the ID because Tim Kashino's log-ons were always dis-continued because they had a .mil extenstion. You will have to discuss that with Bob Hubbard and Rich Parsons as to why .mil is not allowed on the MTC.

. . .

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,

Hmmmm, I think there was a misunderstanding. I thought I said there might be an issue with the .mil IP's, was not sure. Later when Tim Kashino explained in person to me, that he could also not log in from the cyber cafe, outside the base. I then told him to contact myslef with the details of the errors or better yet one of the Admins.

I did not mean to cloud the issue.


Richard Curren,

I believe you were not involved, until the end. I respect your adamant denile in person and here. You are someone who wishes to contribute to the Martial Arts' and Martial Talk Communities'.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Once again, regarding Datu Tim Hartman not going on the floor, read my post above. If Tim hadn't of handed me the stick, I would have asked for the stick and would have gone in his place regardless.

Tim is my instructor. If Tim is asked to Uke, or anything of the sort, I will go in his place if I am present. If Tim is "challanged" even, I will go in his place if I am present. The only thing that would stop me is a direct order from Tim not to. This would be the same if Remy Presas was alive. It is also the same for any of my other instructors. This is the dedication I have to those who are considered my teachers.

As to me posting this in a public forum, the "Lemont issue" involved a public forum. I was only answering MAO who was replying to Lemont. Keith is free of course to set up his own account and reply.

I wasn't really sure, Dr. B, what you wanted revealed in regards to the demonstration. I wasn't going to say more then what I had when I replied to Dan McConnell originally, and I was going to let you or Keith (if he decides to open an account) reply accordingly. Then Mr. Curren pushed me with his response to say more then I planned. What did you expect me to do? I thought this was your "practical joke" anyways? Perhaps it was Keith's? I don't really know anymore, so that is why I deferred the question to you or Kieth to explain.

Hopefully this clarifies that.

Also, one more thing.....

It was because the "audition" did not go well for the Hartman side and the "secret" was revealed, not discovered.

I am not so sure what you mean here. How exactly did the "audition" not go well? I don't understand? Please explain?

Paul

P.S. I am loggin off now...I'll be able to address replies tomorrow!:asian:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
To answer your question regarding Tim not going to the floor for the demonstration:

Since Remy's passing, Tim is my primary instructor for Modern Arnis. He is also a high ranking Datu. No offense here, but given his status, I felt that it was almost disrespectful to ask him to get on the floor with someone who is very much his junior to uke for a demonstration. How would you have felt if I brought in one of my students to demonstrate something, and I asked Mr. Bolden to be a uke in a demonstration? See what I mean....it doesn't exactly fit.

Since I claim no status, it was only appropriate for me to get on the floor.

I said some jokes, and I tried to keep it light, but the reality is it was my duty to go on the floor in his place. I didn't need to question Tim on it; I was fullfilling my duty.

Respectfully,
Paul Janulis

Nice explaination, Paul, but I do not buy it for one reason, the matter was between Mr. Hartman and Norshadow (Keith) and no one else. They created the situation and we were there to witness an "audition". As for what I knew and when that is not for discussion, public or private. As for me discussiong or exchanging comments on the forum with Norshadow, sure I did and why wouldn't I? Did I agree with him 100%, NO! Did I get pissed at a couple of his comments, YES! But in the end the matter comes back to this point, it was between Mr. Hartman and Mr. Keith... Hartman should have been on the floor, not you! If his skill level were so far above Keith's then he could have taught Keith a lesson... Keith and Hartman put this mess together and only Keith stepped up to the plate to follow through... No other discussion is going to change that fact, it is now history.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB
. . .

Keith and Hartman put this mess together and only Keith stepped up to the plate to follow through... No other discussion is going to change that fact, it is now history.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,

Excuse me, was this audition in essence a challenge? If it was then why call it a Demonstration or an Audition. Why did you not say so?

Now, I am really confused

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just outta curiosity....where was this 'base'? Norshadows been quite the world traveler it seems....