In the "Nor"Shadow of a lie

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Personally, I will not show any support or interest for Barber or any of his future events. Those who perpetuated the lie are also suspect. This is my personal view and does not reflect the opinions of MartialTalk or its staff.

Regarding this 'audition', those who insisted on this 'audition' were extremely rude and out of line. It would be like a garage band showing up at a Metallica concert demanding to be heard so they could be placed on the bill. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Hartman had every right to tell these people to guzzle arsenic. They should consider themselves grateful that he gave them any time at all.

Cthulhu
getting more disillusioned with Modern Arnis because of crap like this. Thanks, Barber.

You are quite welcome! Since I do not ever recall you attending anything that I ever hosted before the Symposium, I guess I will not miss you at any future events.

I was never part of the "audition" other than being an observer and since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site, perhaps you need to take that matter up with him. I was placed in the middle of a dispute and I allowed it to play out. Others have made it into the big deal that it has become. It was not my job to "save" either person, they are both grown men. Hartman thought he knew something about the true identity of Norshadow, but he was wrong! Now you, even further away from the main players and outside of the loop in terms of some private messages, want to make judgements based on what has been posted thus far. Good luck!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Cruentus]

I was never part of the "audition" other than being an observer and since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site

This is incorrect. Go back to the Private Message exchange between Tim and Lemont that Tim posted here. You will never read it where Tim suggests an "audition," as you put it. He just says that he'd like to meet Lemont at the symposium.

And again, you qoute audition. Are you gonna answer my question in the PM or what?

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
Tim,

I talked to Dan briefly over the phone, and I clarified this a bit. I think that we are now all on the same page.

I am waiting for Dr. B's response to my p.m. so I can clarify things for myself before I post much more.

tick-tock-tick-tock...............(Jeprody theme song)

still waiting..........

E-mail me directly.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by DoctorB
E-mail me directly.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

If you mean me, and not Dan, I actually did e-mail you directly.

I'll try again, though.

thanks!

:asian:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Jerome and Tim,

I just got back from Buffalo after getting up (according to my left coast body time) at 2:00 AM to make a plane flight.

Guys, this is ridiculous. I don't care if the contimuing enmity goes on between you two until hell freezes over but this"Lamont Norshadow audition" and the degree of importance of "Lamont's secret identity" and it's alleged ramifications is kids on the playground bull$h!t!

This demeans all of us!

Sorry, gents. We should be above this. Both of you are my friends so I speak frankly. This kind of crap puts us in the muck and personally, Modern Arnis - everybody's Modern Arnis whether it's WMAA, WMAC, IMAF, MARPPIO, DAV, or any of the black sheep renegades - we don't need this. RP would've $h!t over this one.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Dan,

The basic problem with this is that some people assume that I have all of the power to create this thing - I didn't. There are some things that I knew after the fact and I was pulled in to it. It was not my place to stop it. I let it play out to it's own conclusion.
I let go of it Sunday morning. Norshadow is banned - ok, he's banned. Life goes on. Dispute with Tim? Nah! We are not best friends, but so what? Life goes on! I am looking forward to some other things and others can stall out and beat this Norshadow thing until they get too tired to care any more. That is their thing, not mine. Yes, Keith is one of my students, and yes he shared the Norshadow ID with another friend and fellow student. Now everyone knows, it's done Norshadow has been banned and that is that. Anything else that you need or want to say, just call me.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Cruentus]

:angry:

ticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticotockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktockticktock.......

 

[Cruentus]

I can't be logged on all night, unfortunatily.

I hope Dr. B will answer my private e-mail either here or in private, and I'll address anything that needs to be addressed tomorrow.

good-night kisses.....



ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

 

[bloodwood]

The basic problem with this is that some people assume that I have all of the power to create this thing - I didn't. There are some things that I knew after the fact and I was pulled in to it. It was not my place to stop it. I let it play out to it's own conclusion.

I let go of it Sunday morning. Norshadow is banned - ok, he's banned. Life goes on. Dispute with Tim? Nah! We are not best friends, but so what? Life goes on! I am looking forward to some other things and others can stall out and beat this Norshadow thing until they get too tired to care any more. That is their thing, not mine. Yes, Keith is one of my students, and yes he shared the Norshadow ID with another friend and fellow student. Now everyone knows, it's done Norshadow has been banned and that is that. Anything else that you need or want to say, just call me.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

This is a typical DrB post, confrontational and a chip on his shoulder. Maybe he hasn't realized it yet but he shot himself in the foot on this one. He also is getting nastier with each post, so I guess he's aiming for his other foot now.

bloodwood

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Now you, even further away from the main players and outside of the loop in terms of some private messages, want to make judgements based on what has been posted thus far. Good luck!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Not necessarily. Via my instructor, I have access to Datu Inocalla, and through him, the MoTTs. Unfortunately, I was unable to make their seminar this past weekend, but I'm sure I'll hook up with them eventually. If Mr. Hartman ever makes it back down to Florida, I'd be more than happy to meet with him as well.

Cthulhu

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Not necessarily. Via my instructor, I have access to Datu Inocalla, and through him, the MoTTs. Unfortunately, I was unable to make their seminar this past weekend, but I'm sure I'll hook up with them eventually. If Mr. Hartman ever makes it back down to Florida, I'd be more than happy to meet with him as well.

Cthulhu

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoctorB
since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site

This doesn't seem to be correct--looking at the e-mail exchange, Lamont NorShadow suggested the audition after having suggested he teach at a camp. Mr. Hartman seemed to be discouraging it and merely said they could talk at the Symposium. If you're going by what was posted, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Mr. Hartman suggested the audition. If you're not going by that then you must know something the rest of us don't.

I was placed in the middle of a dispute and I allowed it to play out.

I understood that you brokered the actual meeting at the Symposium--calling Mr. Hartman and others into a separate room and introducing Lamont NorShadow to them, and that you broke the news that the Lamont NorShadow character did not exist and was one or more other individuals. Is this accurate?

Hartman thought he knew something about the true identity of Norshadow, but he was wrong!

He was lied to by one or more of your students, if that's what you mean.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

The following is part of a post from Escrima Digest. June 8, 1999 from Lamont Norshadow.

From: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:33:48 EST
Subject: eskrima: Re: Inayan_Eskrima/FMA-Digest V6 #207

Recently, I attended a Connecting the Systems Seminar, hosted and
conducted by Dr. Jerome Barber. The seminar was designed for
instructors with karate backgrounds. There were several arts
represented: 5 Fudozen Kenpo practicioners, 2 American Goju Ryu, 2
Isshin Ryu, 3 Shorinji Kenpo and 2 Tracy Kenpo. There were also 2
Modern Arnis and 1 Eight-step Preying Mantis practicioner as well
as 5 students of Dr. Barber's.

I was very impressed with the structure of the seminar and the way in
which Dr. Barber had laid out the curriculum. The instruction began
with the basic blocks common to most karate system, the inward,
outward, downward and upward forearm blocks. Dr. Barber then added
the Pancipanci Eskrima System footwork, combined it with the basic
blocks and explained why there were difference between the karate
footwork and the eskrima footwork when using the forearm blocks.

Let me explain how the E-Digest works. To post you must submit from the e-mail address that you signed up on. Notice the address: [email protected] This is a STAFF address from the college where Dr. Barber works. Neither of the two people who are claiming to be Lamont at the moment were at the college at that time nor were they staff. Lamont has been around for quite some time and can be traced on E-Digest and other forums out there. With information like this, it is hard for me to think that it is anyone except for Dr. Barber himself. Maybe some of the posts were from his students, but as we see in this sample post, it was used to placate his ego and do a little self-promotion. Seeing that this is a STAFF e-mail address, it makes it kind of hard for anyone else to be making the posts. I have no clue what has caused this recent attack from Dr. Barber and/or his pupils. In the past year, I have let Dr. Barber use my school three times at no cost for events that he was promoting. He and his students have always been welcome to visit and I have always made it a point to go over to his people, greet them, shake hands, etc.

Now I have this childish, unprovoked attack. I haven’t said anything nor done anything to Dr. Barber, yet several of his students helped him in playing these games. This kind of crap has been happening for over ten years now and I’m putting an end to it now. Dr. Barber and his students are no longer welcome at my school or any of my events here in Buffalo. If Dr. Barber or his people show up, they will be asked to leave the premises and treated as trespassers, with the exception of Keith. From reading these posts that Dr. Barber has been putting up on MartialTalk, I get the feeling that this audition was supposed to be more of a challenge that anything else. If this was the case, I would have been more than happy to pick a stick up and crack him in the head. As we all know, I am flying to the Philippines so I can meet Moro Moro. Picking up a stick and walking across the floor would have been much easier. Personally I think Dr Barber is trying to make it something that it is not. I think those who understand the English language could tell from the e-mail correspondence that I posted on MT that it was Lamont who mentioned an audition. I tried to make my point in a polite manner but someone didn’t get it. I had planned on telling whomever was going to claim that they were Lamont that they were a clueless idiot and wasn’t interested in the pair teaching at my event.

This whole thing has been a waste of my time as well as the administrative staff at MT. Barber was caught breaking the rules and is now scrambling to find a fall guy. I don’t care how he tries to explain away how Lamont had a staff e-mail address from Dr. Barber’s college, I am done with this BS. I want to thank all who have shown me support through all of this and maybe Camp Barber may do us all a service by finding themselves a new playground.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

For those keeping score:

"NorShadow" either posted or visited MartialTalk from the following locations:

The Locations:
ECC College
Chicago Il.
Tampa Fl.
Naval Military Address' Pacific Fleet
San Diego, Ca
Hawaii

These are aproximate due to the nature of these traces, and also the fact that given the current climate, I'm not backtracing a military network too hard. I am of course willing to turn over full web logs to any attorneys and LEOs.

Dr. Barber is a staff member at ECC.
Tim Kashino is a member of the military and has accessed this forum from the same locations as "NorShadow".
"Keith" I have no clue who he is.

The majority of the posts took place from ECC, with the more recent ones coming from San Diego, CA or the military address'.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Jerome and Tim,

I just got back from Buffalo after getting up (according to my left coast body time) at 2:00 AM to make a plane flight.

Guys, this is ridiculous. I don't care if the contimuing enmity goes on between you two until hell freezes over but this"Lamont Norshadow audition" and the degree of importance of "Lamont's secret identity" and it's alleged ramifications is kids on the playground bull$h!t!

This demeans all of us!

Sorry, gents. We should be above this. Both of you are my friends so I speak frankly. This kind of crap puts us in the muck and personally, Modern Arnis - everybody's Modern Arnis whether it's WMAA, WMAC, IMAF, MARPPIO, DAV, or any of the black sheep renegades - we don't need this. RP would've $h!t over this one.

Yours,

Dan Anderson

Dan,

Yes as adults one would assume that people are above this type of thing. Yet it is the human being that keeps surprising me the most. And not in a good way

And I did have a load of this. (* Get it RP = Rich Parsons Cheap Humor , when we all know it is Remy Presas *)

It was good to talk to you today on the phone.
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador
Someone using a false name and identity so he could set up a demonstration of the "secret techniques" that the Professor taught only him, and insisting that a datu stand for some sort of unspecified challenge? Yes, seeing how the Professor treated [name omitted--"the Duck" if you were there (MSU 1987 or 1988)] in public for what I would consider lesser offenses, I wonder how he'd take it if he knew that the host of a Modern Arnis event had orchestrated such an affair. This deceit hardly seems in keeping with an event meant to be one that would bring people together in his memory after his passing.

I just can't see what Dr. Barber and "Keith" hoped to gain by using the Symposium to play a trick on one of the guest instructors, and by the pushy and rude behaviour of "Lamont NorShadow" in general. Bashing Mr. Hartman and/or PAUL after the fact for not following whatever secret rules were in effect isn't winning any points with me either.

Arni,

I need this right now. The Duck :rofl: :roflmao:

I have not heard that name in years. And I remember meeting him 1987, first Mi Camp.

:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB
. . .

I was never part of the "audition" other than being an observer and since it was Hartman who suggested both the "audition" and the Symposium as the site, perhaps you need to take that matter up with him. I was placed in the middle of a dispute and I allowed it to play out. Others have made it into the big deal that it has become. It was not my job to "save" either person, they are both grown men. Hartman thought he knew something about the true identity of Norshadow, but he was wrong! Now you, even further away from the main players and outside of the loop in terms of some private messages, want to make judgements based on what has been posted thus far. Good luck!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome et al,

Unfortunately, I was there and wish I could forget it.

Yet, to me, it was you who Directed the naming of the students, and then for the audition to begin. You seemed to enjoy this involvement and how it was all playing out.

Sunday Morning when I talked to Tim K., he was not surprised nor upset with the ban of the Norshadow account. When I talked to Keith, he looked surprised and gave me a look like why would he care about the account and or sign up with his real name, when I told him, he could. You see, I was trying even then to be polite to everyone involved. I felt obliged to tell everyone in person and not do it online.

Later that morning when I told you and Richard C. at the same time, Richard was upset to be included. You were surprised, and upset after you had heard my comments. You told me, we could not do this. You told me, we had no right to do this. You told me, that we do not know what we have done. Then you were muttering about how it should have been Tim (H) on the floor, and that it was all Tim's Fault. You then told me it was not me, and that you would talk to Tim (H). I left you and Richard then to attend a session of the symposium.

Now this could have been someone who was just caught off guard and upset, and talking out loud. Or it could have been someone upset over not having things go their way or the way they envisioned them to have gone.

If I had to choose, who was upset by reading people and their reactions, when I was informing them of the Decision to BAN Norshadow. Then I would have to pick you as being not only involved, but also deeply involved, just based upon reaction alone.


At the end of Sunday, Tim Kashino paid me a great compliment, by asking why I had not taught at the symposium. I replied that I had asked to teach just like many others, yet for what ever reason I did not make the list. Yet, I was not going to miss the event and the chance to work out with some of those on your original list. I go to events, and people see me, and I have been asked by people who host to teach. Hence my two appearances with the WMAA. As a Non-member I hope you can see that they do invite people in that they know or have seen. I show up and if people like me and what I have to offer, cool. If not then no big deal. This is how I do things. No better, no worse, just me.

With this post I do not expect you to wish to see me, at any of your events, even though I have tried to remain neutral in this. You see I have been a long standing member of Eskrima Digest and also Martial Talk. I have seen and replied to Lamont's posts. The writing styles and jokes and cross posts are just too close, to not have been influenced by You, Jerome.

OK, so someone was using a fake name. OK someone wanted to teach at an event and they were told no. Then the audition came about whether it was asked for or just given. The announcement of the fact that two people were Norshadow. Two rules broken, one when checked the real names for the Admins, was Lamont Norshadow, and the second not keeping your password private. So the account was banned. Now dealing with the fall out. Personally I wish I could just forget it all and have it go away.


Once again I do not understand what you gain from this line of reasoning? I do not understand the point of the audition nor the denial of involvement? I see no logical way to benefit from this event. And in this I include myself. I loose if I stay quiet with my opinions, for I Have to listen to all the innuendoes and half statements. I loose if I speak out, for it is my word versus yours, and that of your students.

And in the End as Dan Anderson has put it, we all loose.

I apologize to the members of MY and in particular the Modern Arnis. community. I may or may not be online for a while. If it is an emergency call me at 248-467-9454 or e-mail me at [email protected]. I will be out riding my motorcycle or teaching my students for their test coming up soon, or even training myself, or traveling to teach or to learn from others.

With Respect and with Apologies.
:asian:

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi Rich:

Actually, I just happened to kind of be in the vicinity of that conversation and didn't hear any of it (other than the part about the account being deleted) as you guys were talking kind of low, it was kind of loud in the gym and quite honestly not my concern. I wouldn't call my reaction upset, more confused as to why you were telling me about it. But hey, whatever.

Thanks,

Richard Curren

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

Later that morning when I told you and Richard C. at the same time, Richard was upset to be included.
:asian:

 

[Roland]

Just curious.









Of course it sounds like a few bad apples making it suck for the rest of us really.
Or maybe it is the other way around with a few serious practioners who made it a problem for those who had other agendas.

 

[Dieter]

So, did anyone really go to this event to train? Just curious.

Well as a techer and participant of the symposium I can say, that neither the "Norshadow", nor the "audition" issue was a matter of discussion there. Both came up really only here in the forum after the symposium had ended.
Maybe exept for those few people, who were there during the discussion/audition.
That my have been 6 people or so, you would have to ask somebody, who was there (I think Paul Janulis, Rich Parson, Tim Hartman, "Keith", Richard Curren and Dr. Barber from what I have read. But I am not sure)
I was not there and we did not hear about it.

I would say 90% were there to train and have fun and they succeeded, even though we hear here mostly the other 10%


Regards


Dieter Knüttel

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Roland
Just curious.

Roland,
The answer is yes. I and everyone else came to teach and train. The Lamont audition was, in terms of time and energy, a brief moment after a full day of training sessions. Unfortunately, it has been blown up to appear like it was the buzz of the entire Symposium. It was closed doors and only a few people knew about it.

I was was almost there as I was going to go to be "introduced" to Norshadow as "he" and I had some pleasant exchanges on MartialTalk and if one really explores the various Symposium threads, "he"owed me a beer. Then, in some hitherto unrevealed til now secret plan, I got waylayed by people wanting to buy my books and the next thing you know, they were nowhere to be found. I suspect it was a plot to keep me out of the loop and into the $ (humor, guys!).

This whole thing is an unfortunate occurance which is taking on the flavor of being the main topic of the Symposium. That is sad but believe me, it wasn't the Symposium. It took about just as much time as Jerome and I discussing a disagreement I had late in the Sympo except apparantly our disagreement got handled and this one didn't

I had a good time there hooking up with my WMAA buds Tim, Rich and Paul. I always have a good time with them, whether talking or training. I finally got to meet Tom Bolden, who I've heard about for some time. We went over some connected history regarding FMA and kenpo. As usual, Dieter and I got into some fun free play which ended up in both of simultaneously locking each other up. I met and was very impressed with the personality of Dawud Muhammed. Very nice guy! And as always, any time I'm around my "little brother" Bram, I find there isn't enough time. It goes way too quickly. As usual, his CSSD/SC students were the model of manners and great training partners. I got to meet and play with Tim Kashino and Rich Curren, two guys I've had e-conversations with. Again good fun. I didn't hook up with Peter Vargas nor Paul Martin but it certainly wasn't personal - time restraints.

My only personal regret is I didn't get there in time to participate on Friday night. Oh well.

Yours,
Dan Anderson