In the "Nor"Shadow of a lie

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Dan,

Anything else that you need or want to say, just call me.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,
I emailed part of this to you privately but this is for the public record as well. You and I - no problem. Tim and I - no problem. It's the stuff like this Norshadow business that demeans all of us.

I am guilty of that as well with stuff with Kelly and (Randi Shea led) IMAF. My fences have been mended and now I get long with them as well as my current circle of friends and compatriots. Unfortunately, this is part of the "legacy" RP left us. A very fragmented group. Or is it just a microcosm of what Y2K society in the US consists of? Hmmm.

Yours,
Dan

PS - You get a chance to check out the Miles Davis cds?

 

[Cruentus]

Then we can put this horse to rest.....:deadhorse

1. CHALLANGE?? : Based on what I have been hearing from others, as well as what has been posted on line, it has been implied was that this "audition" was more then just a Demo, but that it was a challange match of some kind.

If this was supposed to be a challange match, then this imply's 2 things. #1 Tim Hartman backed down from a challange. #2 I was beat by "largo mano" in a challange match. Both implications I take serious issue with.

Niether implication could be further from the truth; up until implications where made, we all took this as a demonstration, Kieth included. It was clear that I was only feeding him a 1-12 strike to aid him in his demo, so he wouldn't get hurt, and so he could share his technique with us. It was clear that I was not trying to beat him. It was also clear that he wasn't trying to beat me either. Outside of a few accidental grazes with the cane due to lack of control, Kieth wasn't trying to hit me.

Bottom line: this was a demonstration, not a challange.

I needed to make sure that we were all on the same page on this one, however. This was what my Private E-mail was about to Dr. Barber. If Dr. Barber was saying that this was a challange, then I would be put in the poor position to have to personally remedy the situation.

I am happy to say, that at least according to the Private E-mail, Dr. Barber agrees that this was not a "challange match." So, thankfully, we are all on the same page with this one at least.

So I'll repeat for clarity: THIS AUDITION WAS A DEMONSTRATION, NOT A CHALLANGE!

2. Malicious intent? I am not sure what actual outcome was intended by Dr. Barber and/or his students with this situation. But based on all the evidence available, the only thing that seems clear to me is that this was all one big attempt to Bring Tim Hartman and the WMAA down, an attempt that horribly failed.

Now, I will admit that I have been angry with others in the past. I have argued with, and hammered on others regarding issue's of "truth". I, however, would never try to hurt someones career or life, nor would I ever actually wish someone ill-will. This does not seem to be the case with this other "camp."

I guess my point is that I understand that Dr. B and Datu Hartman have had their troubles in the past. This is more then just a case of "2 people argueing". This is a case of a group of Dr. Barbers students (how big or small, I do not know) and Dr. Barber himself (to what level of involvement I cannot say, but he "brokered" the deal, which is enough involvement for me) maliciously trying to construct a scenario to bring down someone else (Mr. Hartman and the WMAA in this case).

This attempt has blown up in their faces. However, this doesn't change the fact that this behavior is malicious. This doesn't change the fact that this behavior is destructive! It is destructive to those guilty of the behavior, and it is destructive to the Modern Arnis Community! And to add fuel to the fire, a great idea and potentially great event (symposium) was used as the "proving ground" for this malicious and negative behavior.

Furthermore, let us not forget that despite differences, Tim has tried very hard to keep the Barber camp in the Modern Arnis Family. They've always been invited to our events. Dr. Barber has used Tim's school for events. Dr. B's students have always been welcomed in Tim's school. If you want to go back even further, I believe Tim had been asked by Remy Presas in the past to strip Dr. Barber of his rank, and to give him the boot; Tim did not oblige Remy on this request.

And all this for what!?!?!? Tim extends his hand, only to have it slapped. Well, I was glad to hear how Tim will be handling this from now on. The Barber camp has f-ed up on this one for the very last time; and now they are officially cut off. I am glad to see that Tim is going to seperate himself from people who insist on being malicous towards him. It would take, I am sure, a great amount of apologies and healing time for this decision to change.

And as for those of you who were a part of this malicious behavior: shame on you! You have disgraced yourself, and your art. If you can be saved, I hope you will learn from this and make ammends. For those of you who were a part of this, and who will always be malicious, you have just nailed yourselves into your own coffin; and by Tim cutting you off, the shovels of dirt have been thrown on your grave.

3. To be, or not to be............involved????

I wanted to state that becuase I did not (and still do not) know who to trust regarding this circumstance, when mentioning the "audition," I mentioned those who were there based on what I had seen.

Apparently some individuals were angry with me because they claim that they were only a witness, and not directly involved.

I have something to say regarding this. Perhaps some of you will recall when you were younger a parent or teacher warning you to pay attention to who you hang around with? That some people might be bad influences on you? I'll appropriatly quote my on mother hear: "if you are at the store, and one of your dopy friends that your with decides to shoplift, guess what? You'll go to jail with him as an accomplice!" Get what I mean? Some friendly advise from someone who hasn't been around for very long: watch who you decide to hang around with.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it must be a duck, right boys and girls?

So, for some of you who "only witnessed", I assumed that you were a duck. So did/do everybody else. This was/is a fair assumption.

And if you weren't "involved" in that audition, then guess what? You should have talked to Tim, Rich, or Myself the next day in private to clear things up.

So I will apoligize to a degree if I threw you name in as an accomplice if you were only a witness......................but ask yourself, is it really my fault?

My suggestion to those who (whether accidently or on purpose) "walk like ducks" is this: If you value your own developement or CAREER as a martial artist, don't hang out with people who are going to suck you into negative situations, or play you like a pawn in a immature and malicious game. Start hanging out with people who are actually going to help you.

4. Conclusion:

I'll conclude this long post with this: It has been cleared up that this audition was not a challange match. It has been determined that there was maliciuos intent with this charade, at the very least. It has all been handled accordingly. So at least on a Modern Arnis level, the problem is taken care of for now, for it will probably never be "solved."

All that is left is the problem between Martial Talk and the violators. I am sure the Administators of this forum, who I trust to make fair and right decisions, will conclude this problem accordingly, and keep us posted on these conclusions.

But from an Arnis perspective, we can let this go into the archives, and move forward towards bigger and better things.

Any questions or concerns with me, please PM me.

Thank You,

Paul Janulis

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Dieter


I would say 90% were there to train and have fun and they succeeded, even though we hear here mostly the other 10%


Regards


Dieter Knüttel

Good point, Dieter. This B.S. was not the focus of this event. I had fun training and meeting new people for sure.

What made this event good was not the host, or the instructors. It was the group of students who came to learn and train. There "agenda" was to train and have a good time. These were the people who I actually had fun with.

I echo Rich when I say that I wish I wasn't apart of these other personal agendas that were negative. Oh well, can't change the past. I can only be glad to have experienced the positive training within the event.

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dieter

I would say 90% were there to train and have fun and they succeeded, even though we hear here mostly the other 10%
Regards
Dieter Knüttel

It was hard for me to enjoy myself with JB using the Symp as a stage for these games of his. As I said when you where at my home, I felt that the symp was part of a bigger plan.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by PAUL
All that is left is the problem between Martial Talk and the violators. I am sure the Administators of this forum, who I trust to make fair and right decisions, will conclude this problem accordingly, and keep us posted on these conclusions.

Yes, lets wrap this unpleasentness up now.

As of today, Doctor Barber has been suspended from MartialTalk for his part in this incident. Other interested parties have been refered to this thread for details.

He will be allowed back in Mid October.

It is unfortunate that an event with the potential to be something wonderful is marred by this scandal. Those involved in the deception should be ashamed of themselves, and in my -opinion- are not fit to call themselves martial artists.


With this said, let us put this unfortunate chapter behind us. I understand there were many excellent sessions at the symposium, and I hope that everyone will now focus on the positive that came out of the event, rather than this negative.

Peace.
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

I went to the symposium to see some people I have not before. They were either my senior in rank or in age and or both. And I wanted to see them for myself. Being the Young Pup of 36 and having 17+ years of Modern Arnis.

I did not see everyone I wanted too. I did get a chance to work with some I did, and also to talk with old friends, even if we have ben friends for only a year or so


:asian:

 

[Emptyglass]

Bob:

Actually the Symposium was something wonderful and unfortunately some people who attended (and some who didn't) have chosen to concentrate on this relatively minor and private topic rather than make statements or ask questions about the quality of the Symposium and its participants and instructors. Talk about concentrating on a distraction.

What did this entire thing have to do with the Symposium proper? Nothing at all, all of the instructors who attended still taught (including Mr. Hartman and Dr. Barber who organized and ran the thing by the way), all of the participants still seemed to enjoy themselves and absorb what was useful to them.

I think it is unfortunate that you (a person who didn't attend) feels that they are in a position to judge how successful or valuable the event was. Anyone, who chooses to believe that the organization of the entire Sympoisum with instructors and students from all over the world was simply to further some kind of political agenda or grudge between anyone is a fool plain and simple.

These are my personal opinions so if you have any comments or questions about them, take them up with me.

Thanks,

Richard Curren

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
It is unfortunate that an event with the potential to be something wonderful is marred by this scandal.
:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Richard,
I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say that the Symposium was negated or a total setup. I said it was marred by this incident. Nothing more.

I'm more interested in hearing about the actual event at this point as I was unable to attend due to a prior commitment. (That being a seminar on web development and a photoshoot for a charity project at a sci-fi convention)

As to judging, well, I can only go by what is focused on by those who were, and there is more 'negative' than 'positive' at this moment. I'd prefer that those who were there goto the 'good' threads and fill us in on all the fun they had.

As I said:

With this said, let us put this unfortunate chapter behind us. I understand there were many excellent sessions at the symposium, and I hope that everyone will now focus on the positive that came out of the event, rather than this negative.

Everyone, if you were involved with the Symp., please put up your thoughts. But not in this thread. Please either use an existing symposium thread, or start a fresh one.

Thank you.
:asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz


As to judging, well, I can only go by what is focused on by those who were, and there is more 'negative' than 'positive' at this moment. I'd prefer that those who were there goto the 'good' threads and fill us in on all the fun they had.

Thank you.
:asian:

Bob,
Unfortunately, most of the yap has been with the Norshadow biz but there was FAR more positive in the event. Hell, I was there! How can you have anything but a wonderful event with me there? You've been to the two WMAA camps and I was there. Were they not truely wonderful events? Thank you - With that, your Honor, I rest my case.

Wonderfully yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[arnisador]

Remember, while this event may have been of relatively small importance to the Symposium, it is of more importance to this webboard as this board was the medium used for the deception. So, I am not surprised to see it heavily discussed here, but I too would like to see more detailed reviews of the Symposium itself!