if you want to groin kick. train the inside leg kick.

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by drop bear, Dec 18, 2014.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    The reason being you can train the same movement in a resisted situation. Without having to kick people in the groin.

    a perfectly reasonable way to gain timing and power with a technique is to train it against a resisted opponent. This is difficult with a groin kick as very few people will get kicked in the groin on purpose. So to gain the timing and power needed we can use an existing kick and change the angle a bit.

    this kick is effective to the inner leg anyway. The set ups are the same. The openings are the same. If you can reach the inner leg. You can reach the groin.

    kicking to the leg will provide a real reaction that you can work the rest of your combinations off.

    i prefer this to relying solely on pads or compliant drills.
     
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  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  3. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I hear that, bro. A kick to the groin or inner thigh is a great technique to close distance and get to work.
     
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  4. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Like it much, we work the inside leg kick often.
     
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  5. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Wait before you said the vertical roundhouse was the best groin kick.
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Without wading back into the mess that this thread sprouted from…

    Hmm… gonna disagree with that off the bat… let's look at why.

    It's not the same movement, so, no. Additionally, training it in a "resisted situation" is far from the only method, the most consistent method, or the best method for all techniques… leaving off the idea that a "resisted situation" is far from a specific method itself.

    It can be, yeah. That doesn't make it the be all, end all, of course… or the only method to do so…

    Uh, no. You'd be working the "timing and power" of a different kick… but here's the thing… you can work on the timing of the kick without going full power (in a sparring style situation, or in an established technique), and you can train power separately… there's no reason you need to train both at the same time, and not everything needs to be done to it's extreme to be effectively trained. If you disagree, my question would be how many times you break someone's arm when you train an arm bar…

    An inner-leg kick is, yeah… hell, I'll drop you with one, quite easily (note: generic "you" there…), but it's not the same kick as a groin kick, in a number of ways, least of which being the target chosen.

    No, they're not. The set-up for a groin kick has the lead foot turned less than for a turning (inner thigh) kick… the hips are set up in a different position (straighter-on for the groin kick, turned more for the inner thigh), the shoulders are angled differently, the kicking impact surface can be different (depending on the system), the weight transfer is different, and so on.

    No, they're not. If the groin is open, you're in front of the opponent, facing directly towards them. For an inner thigh kick, you need to be angled around to the side, coming in 90 degrees to the leg itself. The difference in the opening can be as much as around 30 degrees.

    Possibly, but one will be a better chosen kick, based on the position, the angle, the relative target, and so on. Just because you can reach both doesn't make each of them equal in choice.

    So will kicking the groin… just different reactions, giving different combinations. But here's where you're confusing your own argument… you started this by saying that you can substitute a turning, inner thigh kick for a straight groin kick in training in order to train with impact and timing (for the groin kick), but now you've started giving reasons for the superiority of a turning inner thigh kick over a groin kick… which is the opposite of your argument to begin with.

    And that's fine, but that's you. There are many other training methods that others will prefer.
     
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  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    which would be that inner leg kick aimed at the groin.

    now you wanted a cool name for it. So you got one.

    (but just between you and me it is the same kick)
     
  8. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    Wouldn't that then be a groin kick?
     
  9. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    ok lets look at the arm bar thing. I have arm barred a lot of people in fights and have only ever broken one guys arm. And dislocated a few shoulders here and there.

    The arm bar works resisted exactly in training as it does in self defence in that it controlled the opponent and hurts like hell. From there you can attach a theory from evidence of arms being broken in arm locks that you could possibly break an arm with it.

    so it is not really like a strike that has not controlled an opponent working because of theory.

    this is why if you can it is beneficial to train things resisted. Training power is not the same thing as being able to land a powerful strike. There is more involved.

    ok this different kick idea. When an inside leg kick hits the groin without any alteration at all. It is effective. As shown in the video. That kick is no different to the inside leg kick. That kick was an inside leg kick. Same timing. Same opening.same combinations.

    in resisted training it is a requirement to adjust the angle of every kick you throw because your target and yourself are moving. You physically could not train resisted if you could not aim kicks where you wanted them to go.

    (and as a side note it is harder to consistently aim a kick at that inner leg moving under stress than to hit the groin)
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    that is my argument yes.

    but there is a counter theory that a groin kick is a different kick. Trained separately and called something cool in Japanese.

    i don't think you need separate kicks unless you have some unique situation where you cant land the inner leg.
     
  11. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    The kick in the karate video is not just a groin kick, it can be use to attack the head or body of a doubled over opponent, it is basically a front kick with the shin or instep.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    yeah i have said that as well. Pretty much why you can train that kick to a body part that wont get you kicked out of a gym. And then have a real chance of hitting a body part that will.
     
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  13. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    And your wrong. No matter how much you wish upon a star your wrong. Calling a cat a dog 1000 times doesn't change the cat.
     
  14. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    An inner leg kick will be angled around towards the inner leg… which would not be "vertical"… in fact, if it was vertical, it can't be a "roundhouse" kick… that was the point people were making.

    Oh, and between you and me, they aren't the same kick.

    Yeah… you missed the point. What I was saying was that your argument that you needed to train to the full application is a false equivocation, and I was using the fact that you don't train an arm bar to a break each time to highlight that.

    A strike isn't to "control" an opponent… and frankly, your logic is flawed here. You're advocating kicking to a different target, with a different kick (no matter how much you think they're the same) to show how another kick works without relying on "theory"? Uh… no. You still have theory that the actual target would be hit, and that it would have the effect you're after… so… no.

    Resisted training is, and this'll shock you a bit, rather unrealistic.

    And, yeah, I am more than aware of what is needed and involved to train something to application… for one thing, you need to come to an understanding of what application means in this sense… and in what context that application would take place…

    Look, to be blunt, that video is rather terrible. It shows a sloppy, poorly executed attempted low roundhouse, thrown lazily, which missed it's target entirely. Now, I don't know if this was in the closing moments of a five-round fight, but the kick itself was lacklustre, rather powerless (in the grand scheme of things), and thrown so badly it completely missed it's target, only landing (fairly softly, really) on a more sensitive target by accident rather than design. It's relative "effectiveness" took a fair amount of time to really take effect as well, it must be noted.

    In other words, a badly done, poorly and lazily thrown round kick is not the same as a dedicated, trained, specific, or deliberate technique. It is not a groin kick, therefore the same as an inner leg kick, it's a messy low round kick that missed entirely, and was simply lucky to catch another target to have done anything at all. If it had landed where it was supposed to, it would have had little to no effect at all.

    Not impressed with that one.

    As it is in scenario training, Japanese-style kata geiko, drills, one-steps, and many, many more. And, as far as "you could not train resisted if you could not aim kicks where you wanted them to go", then why are you advocating kicking to a different target than the intended one? Surely that's exactly what you're doing there…

    Can be, yeah… that's mainly as the groin is part of the trunk, which doesn't move as much… but there are tricks to getting the inner leg more consistently, if you look for them…

    The difference would be if you were looking purely at the target, or if you were looking at the optimal execution of the kick (and it's mechanics). A round kick is not optimal for attacking the groin, therefore it's not what most will consider a "groin kick".

    The Japanese name was not to make it "cool", it was to establish firstly what (mechanical) kick you were talking about, and secondly to demonstrate that it already had an established name.

    Okay, how about if you're on the outside of their leg, and their knee is turned inwards? Do you need a separate kick then? How about if you don't want to kick the inner leg, do you need a different kick then? Can you really not see where separate kicks can be needed, or desired?

    So what are you saying, people shouldn't bother with groin kicks at all, as inner-thigh kicks are just as good, or that inner thigh kicks are a good training substitute for groin kicks, as you can't kick people in the groin all training? You seem to be going back and forth between these…and they're not the same thing.
     
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  15. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    In Wing Chun?
     
  16. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I have two issues with kicking to the groin, firstly there is no place for a kick that targets men delicate parts in competition and the second is that aiming at them in a self defence situation isn't something you can take for granted.
    So often women and children especially are told to 'hit a man where it hurts' but the first thing a man does when intent on attacking these is to guard his groin, he will be careful not to let it become a target. In a 'man on man' situation in the 'street' situation the opportunities for attacking the groin are likely to be there but in that case why rely on a kick designed to do something else ie kick the inside of the leg which in itself is a good defence, when you could use a kick designed to actually target the groin.
    Using an inside leg kick and hoping you can catch the groin is no way to approach defending yourself. It's a perfectly good kick use it for what it's meant for. It's stuff and nonsense to say you only need one or two kicks, why not have kicks that you have trained and use them for the purpose they were designed for. It doesn't make sense to use one kick and try to make it do everything. It's no harder to train a couple of more kicks than it is one kick.
     
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  17. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    How much resistance is there in a groin kick? I have never felt much resistance when I kicked someone in the groin unless they where wearing a cup and even then there was not that much.
    I'll agree a groin kick and a inner thigh kick are different unless you have a strange angle of bodily positions when delivering the inner thigh kick, most groin kicks are front kicks but not all
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    resistance as in they are fighting back. So you could spar throwing that kick.
     
  19. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    Training resisted. Does that basically mean you pull your punches and kicks? Like you would unless your going full monty sparring.
     
  20. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    ok understood
    mine where usually thrown in sparring or in a fight........ I train throwing them with as much control in strength and power as I can but throw them a little harder when sparring and one heck of a lot harder if in a fight.
    And yes I believe in practicing them and was brought into the martial arts when they where allowed in tournaments123
     

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