If you had to break down Hapkido

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by goingd, Mar 16, 2011.

  1. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    This is a hypothetical question mainly for those with a fair amount of experience in Hapkido, but anyone is welcome to answer since I'd be interested to hear from different points of view.

    If, for whatever reason, you had to break down Hapkido into four basic techniques, what would they be, and why? Between these four techniques the following should be included: joint manipulation, strike deflection, throwing and pinning.

    Obviously Hpakido is too vast to really break down into such a limited number, but force yourself to come as close as possible.
     
  2. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Some people I know would consider ki development important enough to merit its own category.

    Maybe an interesting taxonomy of hapkido and similar arts would divide along the lines of swallowing/engulfing techniques, projection and repelling techniques, and energy focus/usage/ki development.
     
  3. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I don't know about four, but I do know that one of the techniques would be spin hook kick. It is Hapkido's trademark kicking technique, something that is practiced from day one. Every Hapkidoin should have a reliable spin hook kick which they feel they could actually use in a self defense or fighting situation. I feel that you cannot truly understand Hapkido if you do not have that type of spin hook kick, because if you don't, that means that you do not understand many of Hapkido's basic concepts and theories. If you only focus on the hand techniques, then you are a jujitsu or aikijujitsu guy, and not a Hapkidoin.
     
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  4. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    I like that breakdown, but I'm really looking for specific, self-defense techniques. Sorry, I should've mentioned that originally.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2011
  5. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    I actually disagree, respectfully of course. I feel like that is a bit generalized. For me, spinning hook kick was a notable component of Hapkido, but it was never central. I don't feel like my understanding of Hapkido, while limited compared to many others, is not based on a knowledge of that particular kick, or lack thereof.
    (to note, however, I'm adept at that kick regardless, as it is one of my favorite kicks in Taekwondo)
    I think Hapkido is too varied to define with such a limitation like that. I've met and seen master that focus heavily on kicking in their curriculum, but I've met and seen just as many who have a rather limited focus on kicking. I dislike when extensive kicking seems to be demonized by some masters, but I can understand a point of view that includes less kicking.
     
  6. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey White Belt

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    Just to make sure I'm understanding the question, you want HKD broken down into four general categories of techniques or broken down into four specific techniques that are significant of HKD as an entity?
     
  7. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Locks/manipulation, sweeps and throws, hand/arm techniques, and foot/leg techniques.

    Other categories could certainly be made, and the ones above could certainly be broken down further.

    Daniel
     
  8. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    Let me clarify -- I am not looking for Hapkido to be broken down into four different categories, or four different areas of study, or four different ideas. Hypothetically, I am looking for Hapkido to be broken down into four different, specific, self-defense techniques.

    Much thanks.
     
  9. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    And you don't think spin hook kick (and all its variations) is one of those four? I can tell you that in GM JI Han Jae's regular class (as opposed to seminars), we spent more time practicing spin hook kick (which we called spin kick), way more time, than any other single technique, everyday.

    Another technique that I would include in my four would be knife hand strike, and all its variations, including weapon techniques, and kick techniques.

    But curious, what are your four techniques?
     
  10. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    Sorry, I don't think spinning hook kick is detrimentally important to Hapkido as an overall style. I'm really looking for very specific defense techniques, done in a specific order, much like a form. I originally didn't give much detail because I wanted to leave it a little vague, but I suppose that was a mistake as I apparently left the question too vague.

    Like I said, no one could ever honestly break down the entire art of Hapkido into only four different techniques. I'm yet to come up with a total of four techniques that would qualify as a hypothetical break down, but the two that I have considered are as follows:

    1 -- (against an outside/straight wrist grab to the right hand) Create an open live hand with the right hand and bring the hand to your center with your right palm facing up, and at the same time grab your opponent's left wrist with your left palm facing down and your left thumb pointing to your right. At the same time step toward your opponent with your right foot into a horse stance, and at the same time pull your right hand toward your left side to release your opponent's grip. With your left hand still grabbing your opponent's wrist, pull your opponent toward you and execute a right outside elbow strike to your opponent's ribs. Maintaining your grip on your opponent's wrist with your left hand, place the blade of your right hand on your opponent's left elbow and execute a standing arm bar.

    2 -- (against a double front/collar/throat grab) With your left hand grab the middle of your opponent's arm, with your left palm facing down and your left thumb pointing toward your opponent, while at the same time stepping with your right foot to your opponent's right side into a horse stance, while at the same time placing your right hand on your opponents lower back. By only turning parts of your body, but without moving your feet, execute a right hip throw and drop your opponent to the ground, while maintaining your grip with your left hand on your opponents arm. Slide your left hand upward to your opponents wrist and create a grip on the wrist while at the same shifting into a left front stance and placing your opponent's elbow on the side of your knee. With your right hand prepared in a closed fist at your right side, shift downward into a left kneeling stance while execute a low right hand punch to your opponent's head, and at the same time pulling your opponent's right arm to the left of your body, in a motion that is meant to break or fracture the arm. If necessary, follow up with a right hand inward palm strike to the back of your left hand while pushing against your opponent's elbow with your left knee.


    Done at normal speed, each technique really only takes a few seconds, and maybe less for the first one. But each technique includes a fair variation of individual techniques. Between the two techniques are covered the ideas of centering, striking vulnerable areas, joint manipulation, and a take down. By no means would mastery of these two techniques equate to a mastery of Hapkido, but that is why this is a hypothetical. My only reason, really, for asking this question, is out of sheer curiosity. Some of you may want to include much longer techniques, in order to cover more concepts of Hapkido. Some may want much shorter techniques in order to keep it simplified. But again, this is only a hypothetical. Thanks.
     
  11. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    You mean individual techniques? Like right cross, uppercut, hip toss and spin kick?

    Okay. Wrist lock, hip toss, open palm blocking and the spinning hook kick.

    As to why I picked the spinning hook kick, it is because it embodies the principles of hapkido: hwa (non-resistance), won (circular), and yu (flow like water).

    Daniel
     
  12. dortiz

    dortiz Black Belt

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    In its simplest form then you have 1. Strike 2. Kick 3. Joint manipulation (inward circle) 4. Joint manipulation (outward Circle). I would add a 5. Throwing (tripping, balance etc.).

    EDIT
    Sorry I missed this (Between these four techniques the following should be included: joint manipulation, strike deflection, throwing and pinning.)

    Now you are just being silly because the best technique and the right technique will depend on what happens. Hapkido is flow. In training you may take your Uke through shin kick,palm stike arm bar, throw and lock them on the floor but in real life they pull up on the arm bar forcing you to switch to a circular and front throw etc.

    The best advice I can tell you is dont get married to any technique get attached to flowing from one to another.
     
  13. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    When I say "between the four techniques," I do not mean that each technique should include all of those elements. Once again, this is a hypothetical question with no practical meaning behind it. I am not looking to adhere to any specific techniques, I was merely curious which self-defense techniques people would choose. I was not looking for different categories, or individual techniques. I've tried to make that as clear as possible but at this point I am more than happy to let this thread die.
     
  14. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    So you don't want categories and you don't want individual techniques.

    I and others offered you posts with four different categories. You complained that you didn't want categories. Then you were offered posts with four indiviudal techniques. Now you don't want that either. Nor do you want one technique that embodies all four of the stipulations that you stated (not sure anyone actually came up with one, but regardless). Then you seem frustrated that we cannot figure out what you want.

    Either you are fishing for a specific answer (though your OP would indicate otherwise) or you have not clearly stated what you want.

    Daniel
     
  15. goingd

    goingd Purple Belt

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    I wouldn't say that's exactly the case. I certainly don't feel frustrated and I'm not sure why someone would be searching for answers. I can see how I've left out enough detail in the questions for this to be seen as too vague of a question to understand, but I was under the (apparently misguided) impression that the two examples I posted above were detailed enough to give people a more clear understanding of what I was looking for. That is fine. I can see why it would look like I'm frustrated, but fear not, for this is the internet, and misinterpretation of emotion and state-of-mind is a rampant factor. Also, I wouldn't say I was "complaining" earlier, but rather I was trying to clear up such a misinterpretation. Feel free to continue posting, but I'll be offline for some time.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2011
  16. dortiz

    dortiz Black Belt

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    I was merely curious which self-defense techniques people would choose.

    And here is the entire problem. How can you choose without flowing with the situation. Oh, Oh I choose punch defense with a wrist grab....crap he kicked me!

    Best I can think is what would be your favored response for each attack you can try to create. Thats about the best starting point you can work with.
     
  17. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    This is like asking a mechanic "Which four tools would you pick to fix a car?"

    Um, well, I guess that kind of depends on what is wrong with the car, doesn't it?



    Likewise, the four tools I am most likely to select for a defense really depends on the attacker on the type of attack, doesn't it?
     
  18. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    This was the original question: "If, for whatever reason, you had to break down Hapkido into four basic techniques, what would they be, and why?" so it wouldn't really be like asking a mechanic which four tools would you pick to fix a car.
     
  19. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    If, for whatever reason, you had to break down the English language into four basic words, what would they be, and why?
     
  20. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Well, now you are making an analogy to language, which gets further afield.

    Irrespective, I do believe there is some value to the topic, although perhaps not as narrowly defined as the original poster. I believe you can categorize Hapkido into general principles, which are embodied in certain hallmark techniques. I remember asking Dr. He Young Kimm (who was a member of your Hapkido branch for a while) why he chose to create Hanmudo, and one of the things he said was that he disliked the fact that Hapkido had basically the same technique for different grabs.

    I don't know about four techniques, but I did name two that I feel are reflective of Hapkido, the spin hook kick, and the knife hand strike.123
     

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