I need some advice./part 2 /injuries,etc.

[rmcrobertson]

1. It looks as though your reasons for studying kenpo are in sharp conflict with reasons for going to a lot of tournaments.

2. Ultimately, you might want to remember that a very large percentage of tournaments is, well, crap. There's a lot of swaggering and preening, a lot of self-congratulation, a lot of fake judging--and a lot of mindless aggression, which I personally find particularly offensive in kids. Those high kicks are, in fact, flashy nonsense--they're one of the several ways that tournaments are distorting martial arts. It all makes finding the wonderful stuff in tournaments--and there's a lot of that, too--difficult.

3. What're the judges doing while this is going on? Among other considerations, IT IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO GET KICKED IN THE HEAD. Not only are there occasional horrific stories of deaths from hemorrages, but there's accumulative damage. especially in, "sport," TKD. I'd thought that head shots were barred below brown belt altogether, and out-of-control head shots at all ranks.

4. Do NOT, under any circumstances, start setting up private sparring sessions yourself--unless you'd like to see somebody get really hurt, and you'd like to get (quite properly) sued. Talk to the head of the school you're in--you trust them, right?

5. Good kenpo does not emphasize point fighting. I've seen people lose matches over and over because the worthless high roundhouse "scored," while they were hitting with controlled body shotgs that the judges were too lazy to pay any attention to...

 

[dsp921]

5. Good kenpo does not emphasize point fighting.

This about sums it up for me....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...hate to be dogmatic, but why in the world would any parent in their right mind send their kid into a tournament ring where their opponent, "is trying to hurt them?" If there's anything that's essential to self-defense, it's that you avoid people who are trying to hurt you wherever possible.

They've, 'already won," something, of course, but it damn sure isn't something that's any better better than what it takes for a kid (or an adult, for that matter) to make classes regularly, to learn control and discipline, etc. It isn't anything that certifies that they have, 'more courage,' or whatever, either. It doesn't even certify that they've been in, 'combat,' or whatever the current fantasy is. It tells you that for some reason they get into tournaments. Good for them.

Sorry if I'm over-reading this. But while I certainly respect the Chuck Norrises, the Skipper Mullinses, and all the great martial artists since them who have made tournaments something to see, I don't respect them any more than I respect some of the kids and adults I've seen on the plain old mats, struggling with things every bit as important as scoring a point and winning a plastic trophy.

 

[terryl965]

Uh...hate to be dogmatic, but why in the world would any parent in their right mind send their kid into a tournament ring where their opponent, "is trying to hurt them?" If there's anything that's essential to self-defense, it's that you avoid people who are trying to hurt you wherever possible.

They've, 'already won," something, of course, but it damn sure isn't something that's any better better than what it takes for a kid (or an adult, for that matter) to make classes regularly, to learn control and discipline, etc. It isn't anything that certifies that they have, 'more courage,' or whatever, either. It doesn't even certify that they've been in, 'combat,' or whatever the current fantasy is. It tells you that for some reason they get into tournaments. Good for them.

Sorry if I'm over-reading this. But while I certainly respect the Chuck Norrises, the Skipper Mullinses, and all the great martial artists since them who have made tournaments something to see, I don't respect them any more than I respect some of the kids and adults I've seen on the plain old mats, struggling with things every bit as important as scoring a point and winning a plastic trophy.

I guess you are reading to much into it. Not everybody plays tackle football but the one's that do have my respect along side those that do not. All I'm saying is if they do tournament only a handful of MA'ers do, not taking away from those that don't I just take my hat off to a child doing tournaments. It is a scary thing at first, the child knows the other child is going to hit them hard and fast and it takes alot of guts to go in there knowing that.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Yes, it takes a lot of a specific KIND of guts to step in to a point-fight--though, I am sorry to say, from what I've seen there's often a lot of pressure from parents shoving kids in there.

But while it is difficult to confront one's fantasy of what's going to happen, just as difficult in its way as the rest of it, if kids are really getting hit "hard and fast," some teacher and some judge and some parent deserve each a dope slap.

 

[Digger70chall]

i guess i dont see how this is any different than playing say high school football or hockey..contact sports where there is a known risk involved. People do their best to minimize the risk and everybody knows the possibility is there. I probably haven't seen enough tournements but i've never seen anybody seriously injured sparring, certainly not worse than at football games.
respectfully,
Derrick Ransom

 

[terryl965]

Yes, it takes a lot of a specific KIND of guts to step in to a point-fight--though, I am sorry to say, from what I've seen there's often a lot of pressure from parents shoving kids in there.

But while it is difficult to confront one's fantasy of what's going to happen, just as difficult in its way as the rest of it, if kids are really getting hit "hard and fast," some teacher and some judge and some parent deserve each a dope slap.

Ok here goes when we say hard and fast remember it is from another child there age and wieght, so what we may see as a tap, in reality is a hard strike for that child.
When a child plays football the coach dose'nt tell them to hit the runner slow or tackle the qaurterback with a little push they tell them to tackle hard and fast burry your shoulders into the run and drive them into the ground.
When we send a child in to fight we donot say hit them softly.
when a child does Golden gloves we donnot tell the child just tap we say knock then out if you can.

Why do you believe a parent deserve a dope slap for any of this. I'll wait on your response.

Ibelieve this is going to be a good decussion:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, and here I thought that martial arts were supposed to teach control, and that points were supposed to be scored in a controlled fashion--especially for kids. My mistake.

A lot of the things we push kids into doing are completely idiotic. Yes, football is a contact sport--and yes, we should be waiting until kids hit high school to start that nonsense. Yes, Golden Gloves involves hitting hard--and yes, boxing rules involve hitting real hard in the head and body.

And how smart is this stuff, really? What're the long-term consequences for kids? have adults pushing their kids into sparring rings always tried it themselves? have they thought through the reasons they're doing what they're doing? do they have a clear idea of what the medical consequences can be?

I've no objection to kids sparring, in a CONTROLLED fashion. From what I've seen at tournaments, most of the point sparring for kids is done just that way. However, there's a significant minority that is not. And what's more, there's a significant chunk of truly bad sportsmanship going on out there. And to top it all off, we have no idea whatsoever about what this sort of training, hitting, etc., really does to kids, long-term.

If they're--as mentioned--having a good time, playing hard but playing safe, behaving well (and IF their parents and coaches are doing the same), great. If they're learning to stand up there when they need to, if they're learning to deal with a shot or two, if they're learning control, even better.

But is that really what everybody sees at tournaments?

 

[Blindside]

I remember my first tournament when I was twelve, I got my butt kicked, and was punched in the face repeatedly. Long term injury? Lets look at what else I was doing when I was twelve....

I remember being twelve and trying to ride down a flight of 20 stairs on my bike, and I remember the handlebars twisting sideways about halfway down.
I still have a scar on my chin from that.

I remember being 15 feet up the birch tree in my yard, reaching up for a branch and watching it break away in a wet, rotten mass, I also remember thinking that my back was broken when I hit the ground and I couldn't breath.

I remember being on the ground wrestling for an inner-tube at the bottom of a snowy slope, I don't remember the tandem kids on the yankee clipper sled running directly into my head, I do remember waking up looking at the sky. I have scars from that too.

I've been competing and judging in tournaments for several years now and I have NEVER seen any injuries that match what any active kid should get just being a kid. As for the ego and sportsmanship issues, well, I would far rather having kids competing and having the opportunity to see and learn it in real life than talk about it in the safe confines of their home studio.

Lamont



I remember climbing

 

[clapping_tiger]

All good stuff I and I agree with what the majority says. But I know how some kids love tournaments, and I have come across many TKD stylists who do the rapid kick method of sparring. To me it reminds me of when one plays the fighting games on PS2 and mash buttons as fast as they can and hope to get through it with the win. But there have been 2 real basic strategies I have used and you can work on with your kids that will help their chances and show the "button mashers" that the rapid fire method will not work against them. The first has been mentioned already, close the distance right off the start and don't give them a chance to get into that mode.

But here is my favorite, and just a quick story about this one. There was girl who got beat by another girl using the rapid fire method and she was obviously upset, and her father was consoling her. I hate it when people use that method and beat someone who is really trying to spar (Even more I hate it when someone scores on me with that, it feels like a cheap score). I approached them and asked the father if I could show his daughter something that might help her. He said OK and I asked him to watch to he could help her with it at home. It is a concept in Kenpo that not a lot of TKD practitioners use. It is moving up the circle. The following tournament I was lucky enough to be walking to the next ring I had to judge at, and happened to see her try the move I taught her the month prior. And although it wasn't exactly what I had shown her, her version worked the one time I saw her do it. I chuckled to myself and headed to the next ring with a big old grin on my face. You almost would have thought that was my kid out there. Here is an example of how I like to use it.

You start in a right neutral bow stance and when those kicks start (hopefully they are at waist level, but the technique works the same with an outward block if you need to.), your left leg steps up the circle behind the right so you just went from facing 12:00 to facing 10:00, the left arm does a downward block (or outward for a high kick) as you throw a right backfist, right ridgehand, or if you really want to show them, throw a rear cross heel kick with the right leg. I hope you get the picture from this and I hope it helps. Good luck.

And on another note. Any tournament I have seen, been in, or judged, the only full contact is for adult black belt. All other divisions must pull their head shots within 2-3 inches of the head to score. But the kicks and punchesbelow the neckline and above the belt have to make contact. They are a little more lenient on the adult divisions, but pretty strict on the children's divisions.

 

[terryl965]

Good point Lamont, I too can remember pushing the merry go round so fast that when we tried to jump on we flew off into the dirt also jumping from a swing going as high as you could and let go to fly and getting banged up.

(Gee, and here I thought that martial arts were supposed to teach control, and that points were supposed to be scored in a controlled fashion--especially for kids. My mistake)

Mc robertson you are getting ahead of the game it is under control but you still can get nailed a time or two. MA does teach control, we do AAU and USA TKD sparring both point and olympic style and my own son love the contact, know my middle son love to do Poomse or Kata if you like the sparring he really does not care for do I push him to do it no but he does becouse of his brothers, my oldest is hoping to make the Olympic team one day so yes he is a fighter, does it worry me yes but no more than if he was ridding his Motorcycle down the street or his bike at the skate park injury will happen all we can do is hope and prey that it is not serious. They can get injured on the playground at school or playing tag in the front yard. So as a parent with three wonderful sons I always try to make sense out of everything, you cannot shelter the child until he is 18 and hope that it all come together then.
I hope I shed some light on my position and I commend yours.
Terry Lee Stoker
looking forward to your response

 

[clapping_tiger]

Mc robertson you are getting ahead of the game it is under control but you still can get nailed a time or two. MA does teach control, we do AAU and USA TKD sparring both point and olympic style and my own son love the contact, know my middle son love to do Poomse or Kata if you like the sparring he really does not care for do I push him to do it no but he does becouse of his brothers, my oldest is hoping to make the Olympic team one day so yes he is a fighter, does it worry me yes but no more than if he was ridding his Motorcycle down the street or his bike at the skate park injury will happen all we can do is hope and prey that it is not serious. They can get injured on the playground at school or playing tag in the front yard. So as a parent with three wonderful sons I always try to make sense out of everything, you cannot shelter the child until he is 18 and hope that it all come together then.
I hope I shed some light on my position and I commend yours.
Terry Lee Stoker
looking forward to your response

I agree with this statement 150%. I am all for protecting the kids within reason. But I think as a whole we try to shelter the children from too much. After all, anyone who is 25 and older probably went through their childhood outdoors rough housing and riding their bikes without helmets, we lived and are turned out OK for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I think Helmets are a good Idea, but we try to shelter our kids from everything from getting physically hurt, to getting their feelings hurt. I think getting hurt to a certain point helps make you stronger.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I agree with this statement 150%. I am all for protecting the kids within reason. But I think as a whole we try to shelter the children from too much. After all, anyone who is 25 and older probably went through their childhood outdoors rough housing and riding their bikes without helmets, we lived and are turned out OK for the most part. Don't get me wrong, I think Helmets are a good Idea, but we try to shelter our kids from everything from getting physically hurt, to getting their feelings hurt. I think getting hurt to a certain point helps make you stronger.

Perhaps - except, I would say, for percussive head injuries.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I would refer you to the study published last year in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts," that asserted a higher concussion and head trauma rate for girls in TKD than for boys in high school football.

Occasional mistakes add up. There's reason to think--and look up the studies on, "heading," the ball in soccer, too--that even, "minor," whacks to the head, experienced often enough, add up.

I'd be interested to know exactly what it is that seems so important about tournaments.

 

[MJS]

Just a sidenote--Lets try to keep the discussion focused on the original topic. The original poster was looking for advice on tournaments. The thread appears to be now taking the direction of injuries, in which a seperate thread should be started.

Mike

 

[terryl965]

Just a sidenote--Lets try to keep the discussion focused on the original topic. The original poster was looking for advice on tournaments. The thread appears to be now taking the direction of injuries, in which a seperate thread should be started.

Mike

Well MJS you are right the topics about tournaments and I believe we are still on the topic for some, talking about injuries is a point of view to whether let your child compete or not. This is a major concern for most so I believe the topic is still intact. No dis-respect to you and your position.
Terry

 

[MJS]

Well MJS you are right the topics about tournaments and I believe we are still on the topic for some, talking about injuries is a point of view to whether let your child compete or not. This is a major concern for most so I believe the topic is still intact. No dis-respect to you and your position.
Terry

Hi Terry. First off, no offense taken on my part. :asian:

As for the discussion...I looked back at the first post, and took it as Karate Dad looking for advice on how to help his kids get better at point sparring. I understand where you're coming from regarding the injuries, as its not productive to enter an event that is supposed to be a learning experience, and end up walking away with an injury, although they do happen, even in a controlled setting.

However, at times, when the original topic branches off to other topics, it has a tendancy to lead to extremely heated debates. This IMHO does not contribute in a positive way to the main discussion, and often leads to the entire thread being locked. We had a good discussion going with the original question..I'm simply attempting to keep it going in a positive way!

Mike

 

[Blindside]

I would refer you to the study published last year in "Journal of Asian Martial Arts," that asserted a higher concussion and head trauma rate for girls in TKD than for boys in high school football.

A comparison of Olympic style TKD (encourages full contact kicks to head) and tournament point fighting is highly misleading.

I'd be interested to know exactly what it is that seems so important about tournaments.

Actually, according to most on this thread (including the original poster) it isn't "so important," but it is fun, and a lot of people enjoy competition.

As a side note, our students that regularly compete in tournaments often do significantly better during testing than our non-competitors, it seems they are used to higher levels of pressure.

Lamont

 

[tshadowchaser]

For those that have trouble figuring out what this thread started out as please see http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22687
the thread was split because it drifted off topic

 

[Karate Dad]

It is true that you do see some people hitting pretty hard...it is much more common in the black belt divisions and the adults. Although not perfect, the judges can stop a match and warn a player if they are hitting too hard. It doesn't happen alot, but the option is there. Most of the time, hard face contact results in a stoppage and a warning. Not the best system since the damage (both physical and psychological) is done. It's been my observation that the hard contact is done exactly for the psychological effect. I have seen coaches telling their players to hit hard because it will cause the opponent to fight a different fight. I haven't seen the injuries that were common a few years ago. I haven't run into broken bones or black eyes. You do see kids who lose their footing and hit the floor pretty hard. I've actually seen more injuries during training than in competition. One of my kids used to play basketball for a while...I saw more injuries in a handful of games than I saw in a year of tournaments...

I have to agree with the folks who say they have seen students improve in the studio once they start to compete...it is certainly true for my girls (and myself for that matter). The extra practice really does pay off.

John