I Don't Understand How ...

Discussion in 'Kajukenbo' started by Wo Fat, Jul 18, 2010.

  1. Wo Fat

    Wo Fat Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Southeastern US
    Although I might be a bit more tolerant of rank-chasing, I can understand why some are less tolerant of it. Fair point.

    I agree with making cross-ranked beneficiaries, honorary -- at least initially.

    Yeah, there will be those who are vested in the status quo. But the way for things to change is to be smarter than those who don't want it. Being content to simply stand back and cast judgment from a distance might offer some personal satisfaction, but it does nothing in terms of moving forward. It's, ironically, the same investment in the status quo.

    People from outside of Kajukenbo agree to be cross-ranked, then they obviously want to be a part of Kajukenbo. And if they're willing to be supervised and regulated while they learn it, become seasoned in it, and teach it, then it's better than what we had before.
     
  2. John Bishop

    John Bishop Master Black Belt

    • Advisor
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2002
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Calif.
    That's the biggest problem. The majority of those that I have seen cross ranked in the past made little or no effort to actually learn the system and teach it. They just change their patch and say they're teaching 'their method" of Kajukenbo.
    So you end up with people teaching re-labeled kenpo, kung fu, tang soo do, etc. They turn out black belts who teach the same stuff, and you end up with 100's of people in a area wearing a Kajukenbo patch, who know absolutely no Kajukenbo. How is that good for the future of a system?
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2010
  3. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,378
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I'm more tolerant of it too. I don't like it, but if someone actually learned the art that they hold rank in before they were given the rank, that's far better than getting the rank without learning it first. Rank chasing is more of a protocol breach than anything else.

    They should stay honorary IMO.



    I don't like the idea of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Course correction is better than abandoning ship IMO.

    Ditto what my instructor just said on this topic.
     
  4. Wo Fat

    Wo Fat Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Southeastern US
    I agree with you that it's not good. And there has to be some kind of "remediation".

    Right now, there is little or no effort by the non-Kaju cross-ranked folks (or by those who brought them in) to adopt an agreed-upon minimum set of Kajukenbo standards because (a) there's no minimum set of standards, and (b) there's no mechanism in place to enforce them. IMO.

    What are your thoughts on standards and enforcement of same?
     
  5. Matt

    Matt Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2003
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    This is an interesting question. If someone is 'ranked' by someone on the tree, how is or isn't it cross ranking. What are the Kajukenbo standards?

    How about folks ranked by the founders? Are they without question?

    I've had to address this question with kempo (what makes kempo kempo), but what makes Kaju legit? Where does one leave? what are the boundaries?

    People who do kaju forms? There are non-kaju folks who do similar ones. Some kaju folks don't.

    What about people who are/were on the tree but went their own way?

    It's quite a conundrum.
     
  6. Matt

    Matt Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2003
    Messages:
    511
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Cape Cod
    When I started with my current teacher, I said to him, "I want to start at the bottom, and learn the stuff from white belt on up."

    Ten years later, he just mentioned that he never thought we would have gotten as far as we have, and that he thought that most folks might want rank or some techniques. Sadly, he was right.

    We're a small group, so it's easy to see who is contributing and who is along for the ride, so it's hard to imagine trying to police a group as large and diverse as kajukenbo.
     
  7. Wo Fat

    Wo Fat Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Southeastern US
    1. It's only cross-ranking if the person being ranked is not from the Kajukenbo system (never trained in Kajukenbo).

    2. Still cross-ranking, even if one of the founders did the ranking.

    3. We're at a point where we need to officially define it, outlaw it and remedy it. The devil will be in the details.

    4. We're at a point where standardization will address some of this. But some verifiable lineage will still help.

    5. If they held BB rank in Kaju, then quit and trained in another art, and subsequently came back, I don't know that I'd call it cross-ranking per se. It certainly might disqualify them from higher rank, though (depending on the governance in place).
     
  8. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,378
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I'm going to disagree.

    1. If you didn't get the rank from someone that you trained with to that rank, then it's cross-ranking. In other words: If you get rank from someone other than your instructor, it's cross-ranking unless permission is given by your instructor to do so.

    2. I agree on this one. IMO it ought to be considered honorary rank if this is the case.

    3. No legal grounds for enforcing it. Back to the honor system.

    4. Only if people buy into it will it be able to be standardized.

    5. See point number one. If you didn't train under the person to the rank that you were awarded by that person, then they cross-ranked you unless your teacher gave his/her permission for the promotion, i.e., if one of the founders etc. wanted to give you a promotion and your instructor said "yes" then it's legitimate.

    To start allowing other definitions is to create the same slippery slope that got us where we are.
     
  9. Wo Fat

    Wo Fat Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2007
    Messages:
    351
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Southeastern US
    We may have to agree to disagree here, Dan. There are too many variables. If strictly construed, your definition would mean that someone whose sifu/sensei unexpectedly dies, retires, or is otherwise inactive--and there is no appropriately named successor--that person would no longer qualify for Kaju rank.

    What you're calling cross-ranking, might just be good old fashioned "free agency". Hardly the same as bringing in a life-long Kyokushin guy as a Kaju senior belt. At the same time, there are no indentured servants in Kaju. We ought not try to stop free agency per se. But having some minimal future regulations on free agency might be a job for a duly elected and highly qualified governing body.

    That said, I'm going to log your thoughts and opinion on the subject (if you don't mind).
     
  10. Danjo

    Danjo Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2004
    Messages:
    1,378
    Likes Received:
    60
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I'm not suggesting that one would never be able to advance in rank again if they left their original instructor. I'm saying that they would have to stay under their new instructor for a couple of years before being promoted by him/her. In other words, you don't get rank from someone that never taught you. If you have Kajukenbo rank from one instructor and then go under another, you would have to be instructed by that new person for at least two years in order to get promoted by them. It would prevent rank chasing as well as cross-ranking.

    The idea that you can go to someone that never trained you and then they give you a promotion is nothing more than cross-ranking, or honorary ranking. Even if it's the same art, that new person has no business promoting you if they didn't train you. How can they take credit for you? How can they stamp you as their student if they never taught you anything?

    If one is a "Free Agent" then they need to go out on their own all the way and found their own art, or at least their own group and promote themselves to the top and see who joins. After Sijo founded Kajukenbo, he didn't continue to ride Prof. Chow's coat tails. He was the head of his own thing. Same with Ed Parker, or the Gracie's. Carlos Gracie didn't continue to consider himself part of the Maeda lineage even though he acknowledged him as his original teacher. He started Gracie Jiujitsu and put himself as the top person in charge. Even Helio got all his rank from Carlos, not Maeda.
     

Share This Page