How to develop your MA techniques?

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah but one does not just walk into mordor.

You need a whole range of techniques to apply that one technique effectively.

That technique A is your "general". A general will need a lot of soldiers to support it. When you become a master of technique A, you also need to master the following.

- How to counter it.
- How to counter those counters.
- ... (1 more level deeper).

Technique A then becomes your "door guarding technique". Even for just the 1st level, you may need to train 10 techniques to support it. For the 2nd level, it may require another 10 more techniques, or even more.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

What's your opinion about this MA skill development approach?

When you are refering to a skill, do you mean the ability to preform a technique or develop a separate ability?

As per my understanding, this approach would be good in developing the first basic set of moves (might want to change the length of focus). However, this system relyes on a move being used successfully agents more than one opponent. The issue that you might run into, is that each person that you face has a diffrent style/experience. You might end up short changing the move if you can use it aggents mulitple people, but they have a lower skillset/experience than you do. So, it might be more effective to try it agents better (better being either stronger, faster, smarter, or all three) opponents.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

Sorry, just thought of this:

 

[JowGaWolf]

Concept is good. Too rigid though. Hit A when the opportunity presents. Not jump st hit A all the time forgoing everything else.

That's how I train. I work 3 techniques at a time when I spar. I have Primary, the one that is my main focus and the other 2 are both secondary techniques in the event that opportunity to use the Primary doesn't occur. This way I'm not just sitting and waiting for the right punch and the right timing to use a technique. If a person wants to work on a counter to a front kick and his opponent never does a front kick then it's just wasted training to evade and hope that the front kick will come.

That mean you have to create opportunity to make your technique work. This method may not work for defense and counter fighter. You have to use footwork to force your opponent to move with you. You have to "give" before you can "take".

From first hand experience it doesn't work for defense and counter techniques. It can be used for attacking but in reality you'll probably have to use other techniques to add enough variety so that your opponent doesn't catch on. For example, If I'm working on my right hand jab, then I can't only do right hand jabs. I have to mix it up with another technique. If I only do right hand jabs then my opponent is going to read me and then beat me.

you are missing the real learning, which is about recognizing what's available, rather than forcing what you want to use.

I think this way as well. I rather flow with the opportunity vs trying to "do what I want." Recognizing the opportunity and taking advantage of means that you don't have to worry about falling into a pattern. When one door closes, another opens. If I want to punch then I focus on punching vs focusing on an opening and taking it. Sometimes I'll throw an attack just make a person react so I can observer what's open when I throw that specific attack. This way if I throw it again, then I already know my options and I really don't have to look hard to find the opening.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you are refering to a skill, do you mean the ability to preform a technique or develop a separate ability?

As per my understanding, this approach would be good in developing the first basic set of moves (might want to change the length of focus). However, this system relyes on a move being used successfully agents more than one opponent. The issue that you might run into, is that each person that you face has a diffrent style/experience. You might end up short changing the move if you can use it aggents mulitple people, but they have a lower skillset/experience than you do. So, it might be more effective to try it agents better (better being either stronger, faster, smarter, or all three) opponents.

I'm only talking about 1-1 situation here (either in the ring or on the mat). I mainly talk about "finish technique" that you can end a fight right there.

For example, a simple

- hay-maker to knock on the back of your opponent's head, or
- single leg that you can switch striking game into grappling game.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sorry, just thought of this:

This is misleading. It doesn't mean what people thinks it means. If you practice one technique 10,000 times then you should begin to discover multiple applications for that technique. A person who jabs to the face 10,000 times only know how to jab to the face and has not learn anything. A person who jabs 10,000 and comes away with 10 ways to apply the jab is the one you need to worry about. I can tell you from personal experience that probably only took me 200 to 300 times of practicing a technique before I realize, it has another application.

One kick done 10,000 times with the focus of understanding is not the same as one kick done 10,000 with the purpose of perfecting one technique / 1 application.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You need a whole range of techniques to apply that one technique effectively.

Here is an example. He used the same combo twice in a roll within 15 seconds and made both attacks worked. Please notice that "He initials both attacks".

The "technique A - the general" here is the "outer hook - right leg hook behind your opponent's left leg from outside".

Those soldiers are:

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under hook, and
- knee strike.

I

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here is an example. He used the same combo twice in a roll within 15 seconds and made both attacks worked. The "technique A - the general" here is the "outer hook - right leg hook behind your opponent's left leg".

Those soldiers are:

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under hook, and
- knee strike.

I

He used the same technique multiple times but it wasn't the only technique that he was using. He actually used other techniques until the opportunity for the take down presented itself. He didn't force the technique. That video highlights what gpseymour was saying about using a technique when the opportunity presents itself vs waiting around for the right conditions to occur just to get a chance to use one technique. He used other techniques based on the opportunity that was present.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is misleading. It doesn't mean what people thinks it means. If you practice one technique 10,000 times then you should begin to discover multiple applications for that technique.

Agree!

Let's take my favor "single leg" for example. You can apply it when your opponent

- has right leg forward.
- has left leg forward.
- has both legs line up with your back leg.
- front kick at you.
- side kick at you.
- roundhouse kick at you.
- knee at you.
- sweep your leg.
- ...

A good computer program is a program that can handle all cases and not just 1 single case.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

He used the same technique multiple times but it wasn't the only technique that he was using. He actually used other techniques until the opportunity for the take down presented itself. He didn't force the technique. That video highlights what gpseymour was saying about using a technique when the opportunity presents itself vs waiting around for the right conditions to occur just to get a chance to use one technique. He used other techniques based on the opportunity that was present.

Your 'set up" may not work all the time. As long as you try to "lead the fight toward your plan", the favor will always be on your side.

In that fight, his combo only worked those 2 times at the beginning of the fight. It didn't work any more after that. But in a real fight, he only needs to make his "finish move" to work once. If he has good ground skill and his opponent is a pure striker, the rest of the fight will be easier for him.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

This is misleading. It doesn't mean what people thinks it means. If you practice one technique 10,000 times then you should begin to discover multiple applications for that technique. A person who jabs to the face 10,000 times only know how to jab to the face and has not learn anything. A person who jabs 10,000 and comes away with 10 ways to apply the jab is the one you need to worry about. I can tell you from personal experience that probably only took me 200 to 300 times of practicing a technique before I realize, it has another application.

One kick done 10,000 times with the focus of understanding is not the same as one kick done 10,000 with the purpose of perfecting one technique / 1 application.

But it dose bring up the point that there needs to be balce between quantity and quality. If I learn the application to a move, but the move itself is unusable, than a combo built off of that move will not work to beging with. Shouldn't one be able to have a good punch befor they can rely on it to lead to other applications?

 

[oftheherd1]

IMO, to "forget everything else" is a must. When you can apply technique A in all situations, you can then understand technique A completely.

I note you have changed your stance in posts above, but still I think a little too rigid. If I have a really good punch defense for a jab, and practice it 10,000 times until no one can throw a jab without me employing that good punch defense, I can feel good about being able to defend against anyone's jab. If you throw a jab I own you!

But, if someone has learned from experience that his long legs are longer than my arms, he will never attack nor defend with his hands, only his legs. In fact, he has a great kick which he has practiced 10,000 times, and it never fails for him now. I will never get to defend against a jab. And based on his knowledge of arm versus leg length, he knows never to attack with a hand strike of any kind. My time perfecting my jab defense is wasted. I see you trying to explain things away after your first post. I think your first post has merit. But yeah, that first post is to rigid.

Now everyone is different. In the Hapkido I studied, we have never less than two, usually (sometimes with variations of beginnings of other defenses) 5 to 10 different defenses for any given technique. Early on, I began to teach myself not to pick only one technique for a given attack. Terrain can change, opponent size can change, mine or my opponent's physiology may come into play, I need to be assessing these things from the moment I know I must defend myself. For that reason, I trained myself to react, instinctively as it were, to whatever attack was coming. That worked for me in studying. Not even I, much less an opponent, could know what defense was coming.

YMMV.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I note you have changed your stance in posts above, but still I think a little too rigid. If I have a really good punch defense for a jab, and practice it 10,000 times until no one can throw a jab without me employing that good punch defense, I can feel good about being able to defend against anyone's jab. If you throw a jab I own you!

But, if someone has learned from experience that his long legs are longer than my arms, he will never attack nor defend with his hands, only his legs. In fact, he has a great kick which he has practiced 10,000 times, and it never fails for him now. I will never get to defend against a jab. And based on his knowledge of arm versus leg length, he knows never to attack with a hand strike of any kind. My time perfecting my jab defense is wasted. I see you trying to explain things away after your first post. I think your first post has merit. But yeah, that first post is to rigid.

In my 1st post, the combo ABC, or ABD where A, B, C, D are all finish moves (general). It's not defense move (soldier) as your example to "defense for a jab".

I like to use "rhino guard" to deal with head punches. But "rhino guard" is not my technique A, instead my "head lock" will be my technique A. I use "rhino guard" to achieve "head lock". The "head lock" is my general. The "rhino guard" is only one my soldiers.

For the "arm vs. leg" issue. IMO, one solution to eliminate the leg concern is to "jam you leg against your opponent's leg" by a

- shin bite,
- foot sweep,
- low roundhouse kick,
- knee stomp, or
- ....

When your leading leg makes contact with your opponent's leading leg, you no longer have to worry about his kick.

 

[jobo]

I note you have changed your stance in posts above, but still I think a little too rigid. If I have a really good punch defense for a jab, and practice it 10,000 times until no one can throw a jab without me employing that good punch defense, I can feel good about being able to defend against anyone's jab. If you throw a jab I own you!

But, if someone has learned from experience that his long legs are longer than my arms, he will never attack nor defend with his hands, only his legs. In fact, he has a great kick which he has practiced 10,000 times, and it never fails for him now. I will never get to defend against a jab. And based on his knowledge of arm versus leg length, he knows never to attack with a hand strike of any kind. My time perfecting my jab defense is wasted. I see you trying to explain things away after your first post. I think your first post has merit. But yeah, that first post is to rigid.

Now everyone is different. In the Hapkido I studied, we have never less than two, usually (sometimes with variations of beginnings of other defenses) 5 to 10 different defenses for any given technique. Early on, I began to teach myself not to pick only one technique for a given attack. Terrain can change, opponent size can change, mine or my opponent's physiology may come into play, I need to be assessing these things from the moment I know I must defend myself. For that reason, I trained myself to react, instinctively as it were, to whatever attack was coming. That worked for me in studying. Not even I, much less an opponent, could know what defense was coming.

YMMV.

I'm in agreement for once, i stated in another thread, that you become proficient as ma when you can act instinctively (and effectively )to an attack . I was shouted down by people insisting that there ability to strategize made them superior to my conditioned response

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

you become proficient as ma when you can act instinctively (and effectively )to an attack.

All my examples are "You attack first". What if your opponent attacks first? When your opponent attacks you, he is doing the footwork for you. It should make your original plan simpler. But the discussion of this thread is still "You attack first and create opportunity for yourself".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I note you have changed your stance in posts above, ...

I don't think I have changed my stance yet. May be I didn't make myself clear. Let me explain my personal experience here.

I was forced to use "single leg (A)" only on the mat for 6 months. During that 6 months, I was not allowed to use any other throwing skill. After 6 months, in one Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament, I had used "single leg" to win 7 rounds in a roll. After that, my teacher asked me to use "single leg" to set up "twist and spring (B)". I first attack my opponent's right leg. When he steps back his right leg, I then attack his left leg. My combo training AB started from there.

Single leg:

Twist and spring:

 

[jobo]

I don't think I have changed my stance yet. Let me explain my personal experience here. I was forced to use "single leg" (the following clip) only on the mat for 6 months. During that 6 months, I was not allowed to use any other throwing skill. After 6 months, in one Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament, I had used "single leg" to win 7 rounds in a roll. After that, my teacher asked me to use "single leg" to set up "twist and spring". I first attack my opponent's right leg. When he steps back his right leg, I then attack his left leg. My combo training AB started from there.

did you not get bored of six months of just one techneque, id have left and took up something more exciting like darts, at least sometimes you get to aim at something other than a triple 20

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

did you not get bored of six months of just one techneque, id have left and took up something more exciting like darts, at least sometimes you get to aim at something other than a triple 20

I did get bored. But when I could make my technique A work on the mat over and over, that kind of fun even money won't be able to buy. My UT Austin Chinese wrestling team had used "single leg" to defeat The Ohio State University Chinese wrestling team 2 years back to back (1983, 1984). I won my heavy weight US Chinese wrestling champion back in 1982, 1983, 1984 depended heavily on my "single leg". Sorry I'm bragging about my "past" again.

One of my senior SC brothers who trained his son to use "hip throw" only for 2 years. Later on his son won Taiwan Chinese wrestling champion. By using that example, I knew I was on the right training path.

 

[marques]

If you want to develop a technique A, you have to force yourself to use "only A" in the ring (or on the mat) for the next 6 months (or 1 year, or ...). After you can use A successfully against N different opponents (N = 7, 10, 15, ...), you start to use A to set up B. You then try to use AB combo for the next 6 months (or 1 year, or ...).

You can then get into

- AB, AC, AD, ... or
- ABC, ABD, ABE, ...

depending your personal preference. At the same time, you also try to find out different "entering strategies" for your initial technique A.

What's your opinion about this MA skill development approach?

I can force myself to do A for a few minutes. Imagine one doing only jab for 6 months. It is a great skill (perhaps the most important in boxing), but within that 6 months I would also loose many other fundamental skills... and I couldn't even do it because 6 months is far more than a few minutes. But the concept is great for training. If you want to learn A limit yourself to A, even when the other guy can use A, B, C...

For someone starting I agree it would be a good approach. First a perfect jab, then a perfect cross, then jab+cross... But I never found this approach after trying 20+ schools. People get bored easily. I think cycles of 6 to 60 min works better.

Good approach, unpopular timings.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't think I have changed my stance yet. May be I didn't make myself clear. Let me explain my personal experience here.

I was forced to use "single leg (A)" only on the mat for 6 months. During that 6 months, I was not allowed to use any other throwing skill. After 6 months, in one Chicago Chinese wrestling tournament, I had used "single leg" to win 7 rounds in a roll. After that, my teacher asked me to use "single leg" to set up "twist and spring (B)". I first attack my opponent's right leg. When he steps back his right leg, I then attack his left leg. My combo training AB started from there.

Single leg:

Twist and spring:

Okay, that reads very differently. So, you're talking about taking away the directly competing skills. You couldn't use a different single-leg or a double-leg or a hip throw. But you could still clinch, lock, and (assuming the format allows) use strikes.