How often do you use the more fancier Kicks?

[RobinTKD]

A truly good fighter is just that, a Fighter. The best can take any rule-set and fight well, if not brilliantly in it. The same should be said of self defence. One point to take away, is that your Elite TKD fighter gets hit, full contact, for fun, because he chooses to, whereas the average street fighter probably hasn't been hit that hard too much. Part of any martial art is pain management, and if you can't do it at any level, then I agree that any rule-set (WTF, ITF) would be useless in a street fight.

 

[Gorilla]

Th strategy used to win a match in Olympic style would not be very usefull in a fight. Having said that the fitness,kicks and will to win are very usefull. The target areas and strategy in a fight are different. Sport fighters know this.

The idea that sport Tkd fighters can't fight is a myth. I have posted many videos of sport Tkd fighters that do very well at other styles and know how to adjust to SD situations.

 

[mastercole]

Th strategy used to win a match in Olympic style would not be very usefull in a fight. Having said that the fitness,kicks and will to win are very usefull. The target areas and strategy in a fight are different. Sport fighters know this.

The idea that sport Tkd fighters can't fight is a myth. I have posted many videos of sport Tkd fighters that do very well at other styles and know how to adjust to SD situations.

I agree with most of what you said, and half agree with your first statement. Some parts of the strategy use to win Olympic style Taekwondo matches might not directly apply to a street fight. Other strategies however do apply. Example getting your opponent to be penalized for warnings would not be directly related to a street fight, then again, some of those warnings might, like moving your opponent out of bounds.

 

[Gorilla]

It is a game many strategies used are to score points. I thinks the techs work the application does need to be different in my opinion.

I am open your opinion on what works. We may agree.

 

[mastercole]

It is a game many strategies used are to score points. I thinks the techs work the application does need to be different in my opinion.

I am open your opinion on what works. We may agree.

Right. I think a good example is the Daedo hogu. My son just spent a weekend in Colorado training with Chris Martinez from Elite. Chris is a very motivated, articulate, knowledgeable and highly skilled fighter.
They spent a lot of time getting the feel for scoring on the Daedo. My son said the impact has to be very direct. He also said that a shallow and very quick direct impact *snap* seems to score almost every time. They were also kicking full force, directly into the hogu with round kick and barely scoring. The straight back - back kick - no score. The sensor is in the arch of the foot, you have to get the foot with the toes and heal alignment nearly parallel to the ground, like a back side kick, so the arch cups the round shape of the hogu. This will slightly change some fighters back kick. He felt the back kick had to be hard to score.

Now that changes the self defense application from the original trembling shock - abrupt body displacement idea, which changes the amount of impact one needs to score.

Personally I liked the Adidas Electronic hogu better. It depended on air pressure levels from impact. We have a set and fighter have to fold the other fighter in half to score. Medium blows, taps, or off angle blows do not score on the Adidas Electronic hogus we have. To me, that keeps the original idea of full contact that would disable in self defense. Daedo looses some of that.

 

[Archtkd]

What type of sparring do you use? I ask because you said you try to keep sparring as realistic as possible. In my opinion if you were to design a ruleset for sparring which looks as far from a realistic altercation as is humanly possible you would come up with wtf ruleset. Rarely in a realistic fight will you see kicks (particularly above waist height), rarely in a real fight will there not be at least 1 head punch within 2 seconds of the fight starting, rarely will you see two guys standing 4 feet from each other, rarely will a spin kick work in a real situation (even less likely will it be 'rewarded') etc. Dont get me wrong, where I train we use many different types of sparring and I find the olympic ruleset a lot of fun, but realistic, no way.

How many times have you seen a well trained and experienced taekwondoin involved in a street fight in order to conclude that kicks are rarely thrown above the knee? How many "realistic" situations involving well trained taekwondoin have you witnessed to determine that spin hook kicks would be rarely used. How many fight involving serious taekwondoin have you seen to conclude that they would encounter problems because a face punch was thrown 2 seconds after commencement of a fight, or that they would have difficulties in dealing with an opponent who was less than 4 feet away.

We too often base our anecdotal data on situations in which none of the combatants have any real training or experience in fighting. We hear stories and we are told things by people. We also sometimes use the unsupported anecdotal information that we gather in contradictory ways.

If it’s true that kicks are rarely thrown above the knee in "realistic" situations, wouldn’t it be wise to relentlessly focus on training how to throw a roundhouse kick to the jaw or a spin kick to the temple with furious speed. Surprise and diversity of attack and counter attack are key to winning a fight. Why would one focus on perfecting to do things which everyone supposedly expects?

Assuming it’s true that a face punch is always thrown within 2 seconds of a so called "realistic" situation, wouldn’t it also be prudent to train daily on how to keep ones distance and use footwork. Those are the thins that would allows one to use their own weapons without being hit? Just because lots of tough guys prefer to slug it out from less than 4 feet doesn’t mean we should all stay tied to that range.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

How many times have you seen a well trained and experienced taekwondoin involved in a street fight in order to conclude that kicks are rarely thrown above the knee? How many "realistic" situations involving well trained taekwondoin have you witnessed to determine that spin hook kicks would be rarely used. How many fight involving serious taekwondoin have you seen to conclude that they would encounter problems because a face punch was thrown 2 seconds after commencement of a fight, or that they would have difficulties in dealing with an opponent who was less than 4 feet away.

We too often base our anecdotal data on situations in which none of the combatants have any real training or experience in fighting. We hear stories and we are told things by people. We also sometimes use the unsupported anecdotal information that we gather in contradictory ways.

If it’s true that kicks are rarely thrown above the knee in "realistic" situations, wouldn’t it be wise to relentlessly focus on training how to throw a roundhouse kick to the jaw or a spin kick to the temple with furious speed. Surprise and diversity of attack and counter attack are key to winning a fight. Why would one focus on perfecting to do things which everyone supposedly expects?

Assuming it’s true that a face punch is always thrown within 2 seconds of a so called "realistic" situation, wouldn’t it also be prudent to train daily on how to keep ones distance and use footwork. Those are the thins that would allows one to use their own weapons without being hit? Just because lots of tough guys prefer to slug it out from less than 4 feet doesn’t mean we should all stay tied to that range.

Everything I say is based soley on the street fights Ive seen, which are many. I also take onboard the info given to me by the many high ranking police officers I train with who see first hand all sorts of violence day to day in their job. Im obviosly watching the wrong streetfights though, because Ive never seen a head kick in a street fight, and the most consistent thing I see is punches to the head, that is most people's first attack, usually a right hook. You are entitled to your opinions but when it comes to subjects like these I prefer to take the advice of police officers and bouncers who see altercations everyday. You only have to look at "reality" based self defence systems and they arent teaching head kicks. There is a reason for this. I have also said countless times on martial talk that I have no doubt at all that an elite tkdoin will easily defend themself in a real situation, they are a finely tuned athlete at the peak of their powers. The average black belt training a couple of nights a week at the local dojo throwing headkicks in a real situation is a vastly different story. A very small % of all tkdoin are elite. The bottom line is anything 'could' work in a real fight, its just that different things have different chances of actually working on a regular basis, and anyone who thinks head kicks are a high percentage technique for the real world really needs to go and talk with some people who deal with 'real' altercations on a daily basis.

 

[Cyriacus]

Everything I say is based soley on the street fights Ive seen, which are many. I also take onboard the info given to me by the many high ranking police officers I train with who see first hand all sorts of violence day to day in their job. Im obviosly watching the wrong streetfights though, because Ive never seen a head kick in a street fight,

Ooh, I have! But it was a 6"3 guy foot-punting some 5"6 or so gent, in some kind of drunken arguement. It wasnt terribly effective, and it clearly wasnt a trained hit, but its been done.

and the most consistent thing I see is punches to the head, that is most people's first attack, usually a right hook. You are entitled to your opinions but when it comes to subjects like these I prefer to take the advice of police officers and bouncers who see altercations everyday. You only have to look at "reality" based self defence systems and they arent teaching head kicks. There is a reason for this.

Or a Grab. Though to be fair, said Grab is often followed by a Right Hook.

I have also said countless times on martial talk that I have no doubt at all that an elite tkdoin will easily defend themself in a real situation, they are a finely tuned athlete at the peak of their powers. The average black belt training a couple of nights a week at the local dojo throwing headkicks in a real situation is a vastly different story. A very small % of all tkdoin are elite. The bottom line is anything 'could' work in a real fight, its just that different things have different chances of actually working on a regular basis, and anyone who thinks head kicks are a high percentage technique for the real world really needs to go and talk with some people who deal with 'real' altercations on a daily basis.

I think Head Kicks are amazing, and should always be taught! ...For when the Opponent has been brought down, either onto their knees, or to the ground, or slouched over, or something. Otherwise, being able to is important, just incase some situation somehow calls for it, but otherwise, Midsection and Below for Me.

Just My Contribution.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Just My Contribution.

I agree cyriacius. I train head kicks, there is a time and place for everything and the more things in your arsenal the better in my opinion. In saying that though, Id love to see a breakdown of techniques most commonly used in street fights, I dare say head kicks wont be one of them. My original post was in relation to wtf ruleset and how it compares to a 'real fight', Im obviously watching the wrong fights because the ones I see look closer to a rugby match than they do to a wtf bout.

 

[Cyriacus]

I agree cyriacius. I train head kicks, there is a time and place for everything and the more things in your arsenal the better in my opinion. In saying that though, Id love to see a breakdown of techniques most commonly used in street fights, I dare say head kicks wont be one of them. My original post was in relation to wtf ruleset and how it compares to a 'real fight', Im obviously watching the wrong fights because the ones I see look closer to a rugby match than they do to a wtf bout.

Yeah - Or more accurately, Rugby can resemble Wrestling with Ball Kicking (The Football), and the odd brawl. And Wrestling and Football like Kicks and Barrages of Punches more or less describes most Fights. Coupled with the fact the majority of Adult Males in this Country have at some stage played Football, its natural that itd translate over a touch.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Yeah - Or more accurately, Rugby can resemble Wrestling with Ball Kicking (The Football), and the odd brawl. And Wrestling and Football like Kicks and Barrages of Punches more or less describes most Fights. Coupled with the fact the majority of Adult Males in this Country have at some stage played Football, its natural that itd translate over a touch.

Id definetly resort to rugby in a fight

 

[Cyriacus]

Id definetly resort to rugby in a fight

Rugby: The Art of Self Defense.
Hehe.

Seriously though, some of the High Tackles in Rugby are generally good things to know. As Illegal as They may be in the Sport.

 

[StudentCarl]

Inconsistent surfaces are, IMO, the biggest overlooked factor in higher kicking on the street, though tight clothing can't be ignored either. Ever work your kicks on gravel, in mud, or on a sticky surface? I think it's a stretch to reduce shihap kyorugi to only head kicks, but even in a match those have to be set up. Off the mat or floor, there are more variables. I agree that you could get yourself in trouble if you don't know what your doing. Everybody gets to make their own decisions.

At the same time, other posts have mentioned the conditioning to contact, balance and agility, timing, and mindset/focus that are developed in full contact sparring. Two of the least mentioned skills developed sparring are strike timing and reading the opponent. Folks who focus only on the kicks are maybe not understanding what leads up to it. If kicking people was as easy as breaking a stationary board, we'd all be amazing. Instead, take basic agility with good timing and reading of opponent: if someone can read and time you, do you think the only danger is from their foot at your head?

 

[Cyriacus]

Inconsistent surfaces are, IMO, the biggest overlooked factor in higher kicking on the street, though tight clothing can't be ignored either. Ever work your kicks on gravel, in mud, or on a sticky surface? I think it's a stretch to reduce shihap kyorugi to only head kicks, but even in a match those have to be set up. Off the mat or floor, there are more variables. I agree that you could get yourself in trouble if you don't know what your doing. Everybody gets to make their own decisions.

At the same time, other posts have mentioned the conditioning to contact, balance and agility, timing, and mindset/focus that are developed in full contact sparring. Two of the least mentioned skills developed sparring are strike timing and reading the opponent. Folks who focus only on the kicks are maybe not understanding what leads up to it. If kicking people was as easy as breaking a stationary board, we'd all be amazing. Instead, take basic agility with good timing and reading of opponent: if someone can read and time you, do you think the only danger is from their foot at your head?

Now Im curious. This may just be a brainfart, but, a Sticky Surface?

 

[dancingalone]

Now Im curious. This may just be a brainfart, but, a Sticky Surface?

Asphalt on a very hot day, perhaps a road or even some types of basketball and tennis courts.

 

[StudentCarl]

Now Im curious. This may just be a brainfart, but, a Sticky Surface?

I mean it relatively rather than standing in adhesive. Training barefoot on a relatively smooth surface gets you used to a certain, fairly light amount of friction. It's harder to kick well if you have too much traction for your plant foot to turn. I agree that, in most cases, the risk is too little traction rather than too much...but either one can throw you off.

 

[Cyriacus]

Asphalt on a very hot day, perhaps a road or even some types of basketball and tennis courts.

Thanks;

I mean it relatively rather than standing in adhesive. Training barefoot on a relatively smooth surface gets you used to a certain, fairly light amount of friction. It's harder to kick well if you have too much traction for your plant foot to turn. I agree that, in most cases, the risk is too little traction rather than too much...but either one can throw you off.

It wouldnt really affect Me then. I wear work boots through most of the day for... Well, work. I learnt long ago that You cant always, and shouldnt rely on being able to turn Your Foot from its place on the ground.

Thanks!

 

[Instructor]

Just yesterday one of my students asked me to teach him a jump spinning crescent kick. I taught him the kick. He asked if it's something I would use in self defense and I said....nope.

 

[terryl965]

Lets see how often would I use a fancy kick, here is my answer the same amount of time I need to use self defense. Not that often it is just fun to be able to do them..

 

[Archtkd]

The average black belt training a couple of nights a week at the local dojo throwing headkicks in a real situation is a vastly different story. A very small % of all tkdoin are elite. The bottom line is anything 'could' work in a real fight, its just that different things have different chances of actually working on a regular basis, and anyone who thinks head kicks are a high percentage technique for the real world really needs to go and talk with some people who deal with 'real' altercations on a daily basis.

Yes you've seen tons of street fights and have numerous sources of altercation data, but you didn' t answer my basic question. How many taekwondoin, even your average blackbelt who trains twice a week, have you seen in a street fight? Of all the altercations that your police buddies talk about in your dojang, how many involved experienced blackbelts from any martial art?