Talyunbong and/or Powair water filled heavy bag

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by mastercole, Mar 16, 2012.

  1. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    I am curious if any of the Taekwondo practitioners here use a talyunbong, or in-ground makiwara post to develop the straight punch. If so

    - what is your technique (s) of movement
    - how many years have you trained with this tool
    - how much do you feel you have learned from using it
    - how important do you think it is
    - if you teach, do you teach it to your students
    - if you have used it for many years, how as your approach to using the tool changed

    Also, if you do the same training on a Powair style water filled heavy bag, no foam, just water right to the skin of the bag, how does it compare to the talyunbong?
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2012
  2. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I have trained extensively with a makiwara, but it came through my study of karate not taekwondo. Please ignore my answers if they aren't applicable for your purposes.

    - what is your technique (s) of movement
    Not sure I understand the question, but I have trained a variety of strikes including punches, haito, shuto, and kicks. From my perspective, it's probably best used for building precision and focus with the seiken fist though.

    - how many years have you trained with this tool
    20+ years

    - how important do you think it is
    Very important for karateka. For taekwondoin, I do wonder. Certainly I was never exposed to one in my initial study of TKD. We used heavy bags, focus mits, and kicking shields instead then.

    - how much do you feel you have learned from using it
    Tons. My sensei likes to say 'no makiwara, no punch'. It provides immediate feedback on every single punch. If you don't hit it right on with the knuckles, you will cut your skin badly. If your punch has no snap to it, the pushback from the post will tell you right away. If you're just pushing with your punch, the post will feel heavy on your fist. And of course, it helps you understand rather quickly the relationship between being grounded/rooted and striking hard.

    - if you teach, do you teach it to your students
    For my karate students, yes. It's considered a core training tool along with hojo undo exercises and of course Sanchin kata.

    - if you have used it for many years, how as your approach to using the tool changed
    I used to think of it as primarily a physical conditioning tool as a younger guy. Now I'm aware the mental focus it sharpens is just as important. I liked high repetitions because of the satisfying feedback the makiwara gives. Now I'm just as pleased if I can quickly step up and fire off 5 good punches. Obviously once you get to a certain level, it's more about staying honed and you don't need a lot of reps necessarily.

    -Also, if you do the same training on a Powair style water filled heavy bag, no foam, just water right to the skin of the bag, how does it compare to the talyunbong?
    Never used a "Powair".
     
  3. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    Karate and Taekwondo use of the talyunbong/makiwara are the same, what varies is from individual to individual. Thank you for your detailed reply. I did not expect a lot of replies, if any at all. Most practitioners do not train with the forging post these days.

    My question was narrow and related only to the fore fist straight punch. As for technique, I was curious about stance, starting position of the hands, angle of the body at rest, angle of the body at impact, angle of the striking and opposing arm at impact, and exactly happens immediately after impact.
     
  4. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    I've contemplated building one for a while now.. . I'm assuming you cannot buy one? I've seen Makiwara boards, but not the spring loaded ones you post in the ground.
     
  5. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    It really depends on the person and style. Within my line of Goju-ryu karate, we stand in sanchin dachi, the hourglass stance with our shoulders and hips more or less straight ahead. While there is use of koshi (hips) to create force, it's more of a circular motion than the hip back, hip forward method commonly seen in Shotokan karate.

    When I studied Matsubayashi-ryu karate, we stood in a shallow zenkutsu-dachi with the rear shoulder and hip slightly tucked back before snapping forward as part of the punching movement. It was considered a flaw if your punching shoulder rotated forward so that it is on a different line than the retracting arm side.

    In both styles, you ended up square to the target upon the strike and if you were practicing a snap punch, you had to learn the longest interval you could keep contact with the post before it becomes a thrust punch or worse a push with the fist.
     
  6. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I've never seen one for sale from a standard supplier like Century or AWMA.
     
  7. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    GM LEE Won Kuk said "No makiwara, no karate." That was his exact quote.

    Do you feel that having the rice rope around the post is an essential part of the experience, or can softer materials be used for the actual striking surface? For example, could someone substitute a piece of puzzle mat for the rice rope? Why or why not?
     
  8. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I think most users make their own makiwara, as opposed to buying one. A lot of books have detailed instructions and plans on how to build one.
     
  9. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    That's great. I have a feeling most older martist artists who have used the makiwara say or have heard something similar from their own teachers and seniors.


    You've got to get to the rope eventually if you think punching absolutely straight on is important. (I realize a lot of people & styles do not.) Covering the post with foam or a puzzle mat piece is a lot more forgiving and you just won't get the same visceral feedback. There's also a mental dimension to the apprehension the rope brings out which I think is a good barrier to surmount.
     
  10. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    That used to be the actual 1st Dan test during the 40s, suffering through a year or more of makiwara training, and then showing off that training breaking roofing tiles at your promotion test. How many of us would pass that sort of test today? That was also a reason why children were not awarded dan ranks, because it is not really recommended that children undergo training using the makiwara. It had nothing to do with "maturity", at least not the type people think of today.
     
  11. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    Do you know other practitioners who have trained with the makiwara as long as you have, or that even train with it at all?
     
  12. Miles

    Miles Senior Master

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    I have a talyunbong which GM Park said had too much resistance so I took it down. I have a diagram he drew up to mount it so that it has the right amount of resistance but need more carpentry skills to build the base.

    No one has used the Powair bag? I'm curious about them, I've never used it either. At our dojang, we have a Century wavemaster on one mat and a hanging Everlast bag on another. Different drills for each.
     
  13. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Yes, I became aware of other groups outside my immediate lineage, outside Goju even, who train makiwara consistently when I attended Higaonna Sensei's seminar a number of years ago in Amsterdam. They're all over the place really - it's not uncommon.

    Most serious Okinawan karate people have some degree of exposure to one. In my opinion, the Naha systems like Goju and Uechi probably tend to work it more than the Shorin-ryu folk. You can tell right away who has spent a goodly amount of time with it - the unity of their tsuki method is apparent.
     
  14. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    Haven't used the Powair. I read someplace -- might have been here -- that the Powair doesn't have anywhere near the kind of travel that a hanging heavy bag typically does, which I thought was interesting. Is that due to the weight or style of mounting?

    One of my previous schools filled their wavemaster with sand instead of water. Sand is denser, makes for a heavier bag.
     
  15. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    I don't have any experience with the Powair either, but we do have standing wavemasters (and as Carol suggested we fill ours with sand for both weight and leakage issues) They work good for speed and technique drills, but I prefer the old hanging heavy bag for serious work. The Bob's work pretty good too.. .
     
  16. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Does the sand make the wavemasters hold up better? In my experience, they're not durable with frequent use and they eventually start leaking water, which is the reason I installed hanging heavy bags at my school.
     
  17. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    I think so. The water is very forgiving and very moveable. My old teacher kept the water-filled bags for the kids class for that reason, plus I think the kids had fun with the distinctive 'thunk' they made when they were hit. The sand doesn't result in as much motion as the water does.

    If the sand does leak, there is less of it and less of a mess. Sand isn't anywhere near as destructive as water if it seeps out. I know the school had one wavemaster that leaked sand, but what I don't know is if the leak was actually caused when it was filled with sand, or if it was caused when it was filled with water and the wavemaster was later filled with sand and patched.
     
  18. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    The sand provides two benefits IMO, It adds more weight, so the bag does not move as much. The lack of fluid dynamics also may have some affect on the durability of the seams. The seems wear out and then they start leaking water, but I haven't had any wavemasters leak sand YET.
     
  19. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    For the serious practitioner, the Wavemaster and Powair bag are as different as a makiwara (talyunbong) and a balloon. My advise, only use Wavemasters (water or sand in the base) for beginners (White to Black belt). Once a persons technique is shaped, it's time to move on to targets that can help practitioners refine their technique and study it deeply. My higher skilled students never use the Wavemaster. Actually it will degrade refined technique. All a person is striking is a thick, firm piece of foam. The water (or sand) in the base simply holds the base up right for you. Good idea for business where the dojang instructor has a lot of students in class to run through drills, but bad idea for developing technique to a high level.

    The Powair bag however is pure genius. It hangs from a chain and is filled with water. No foam at all. The water comes right to the outer neopreme (sp?) skin of the bag. Ours is about 130 lbs. When you punch or kick the Powair style bag, your fist or foot immediately impacts into the water and the water will exponentially resist the deeper you penetrate. In order to penetrate deeper into the water, you must align your technique correctly, like the makiwara. Once the correct alignment becomes habitual, start going deeper and deeper. Train on this bag for 20+ years and your technique will be very natural. You can go deep into the bag with seemingly effortless movement, again, like the makiwara.

    When we kick or punch humans, we are striking mostly water and to go deeper into the body (like water) we must have correct alignment, acceleration, mass, etc. The Powair bag lets us explore that in depth.

    I have trained with the Powair bag almost as long I have have with the makiwara, about 30 years. To me, one is just as important as the other. Actually, if I had to choose only one, today, I might go with the Powair bag. But good luck finding a Powair style bag. The company is not always in business, but there are off shoots that are just as good, but you want one that is *water to outer skin* NO FOAM. I'll try and post a link later
     
  20. RobinTKD

    RobinTKD Blue Belt

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    Master Cole, did you ever find the link? The Powair bag sounds like just the thing I'm looking for.
     

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