How much Sparring?

[r.severe]

Sparring..

Going out and training football shooting on goal, passing, running with the ball.. etc.. during training.. is like a game.. but without the mental stress..

Much like sparring is like fighting.. you just don't have the animal mind set to hurt your partner..

I don't feel sparring is a big deal and I can't understand why it is asked about so much.. it should be part of every class.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Exactly. Sparring isn't a big deal. Which is why it shouldn't be very heavily relied upon.

 

[r.severe]

Yes, sparring is like swimming..
If you wish to swim.. you got to get wet.. but if you only going to research swimming and not really going to swim.. what's the need of getting wet?

This is much like kenjutsu..

Many have katana..
They put them on the wall..
Play arounf with them now and then..
Even dress up and play ninja or samurai..

But never train kenjutsu with the katana..

Nothing is so shameful than watching masters or experts teach kenjutsu without first training for many years and cutting 100's of targets and sparring with weaponry.. to pass on honest training methods.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Thing is, with the swimming analogy, when things go too fast people often start confusing their backyard pool and the ocean.

 

[Cryozombie]

when things go too fast people often start confusing their backyard pool and the ocean.

That is a great analogy.

 

[r.severe]

Speed has noting to do with pragmatic sparring.. or fighting and backyard pools don't either. But getting wet is getting wet.. never the less if your in a backyard pool, shower, or river..

Sitting at a table looking at pictures or talking about it.. a backyard pool, a river or a shower and telling people you got wet is mainly what I have experienced in martial arts.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That's funny. Almost sounds as if you've been spending too much time on ARMA's essay pages.

 

[r.severe]

I'm a funny guy.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[r.severe]

How much sparring..

Sparring is a complex and very misunderstood subject..
Most of the misconception comes from the lack of knowledge of sparring or no sparring experience at all.

You may also look at sparring the same manner you would look at hitting.

A student who trains bujutsu but doesn't hit targets on a weekly basis really is missing a great deal of the 'feel' and 'pragmatic' views of hitting.

Understanding this then you should assume this student doesn't truly know hitting from experience at all.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I look at sparring the same way I look at a chess game - back and forth, give and take.

 

[Don Roley]

Thing is, with the swimming analogy, when things go too fast people often start confusing their backyard pool and the ocean.

Nice analogy. But there is of course more to the situation.

I think the big problem is ego. People want to win and have other people know they won. It has been my experience that when people start to do things that let them be one up on another person in the dojo, things are going to evolve into who can do better in that situation. And I would like people to recall that Darwin did not really say that sparring made living organisms improve. Rather it merely made them better adapted to the enviroment.

The enviroment in the ring is not combat. But people who notice who does better in the ring tend to adapt what they do for the ring and lose sight of the street. They leave things hanging out that will get cut off in a real fight and if it is pointed out to them they will give the excuse, "oh- I won't do that in a real fight."

The hell you won't.

I went drinking with some guys who do budo here in Japan and one guy who did MMA was talking about how he easily knocked out Kyokushin guys in his class. Kyokushin does some pretty horrendous things in their tournaments. But they do not allow punches to the face. These guys that went into my drinking buddy's place knew that they had to watch their heads, and still got clobbered. Months after they started training in this guys MMA dojo they still could not cover themselves in the head after a few years of training themselves to not think about punches to the face.

Oh yes, I am sure everyone says that the cure is more realistic rules. But no rule is near the level of realism of a real fight. No one worries about the guy pulling a knife out in a sparring session anymore than the Kyokushin guys used to think about someone throwing a punch at their face. And we tend to adapt to that reality and ingrain it into us.

Hence, (trying to rap this up in a hurry) we should get rid of the idea that someone should "win" in a sparring match and try to prevent people from being able to recognize who is better than who in training. And we should try a variety of situations and rules, none of them enough for people to start reallly adapting to the rules. For example, half speed trainign with goggles on and taps to the eyes being permited might make people concious of how oepn they leave themselves to an eye gouge while doing scenario training where a few students in a teaching role may jump in unexpectedly or produce weapons unexpectedly.

Hatsumi dropped sparring because he found that it was causing his gaijin students to develop bad habits. We need to think about that, and the resons behind it, if we are to use sparring.

 

[r.severe]

Don wrote, "The enviroment in the ring is not combat."

Could you please give a few accounts on your personal involvment or experiece with ring fighting for us. I'm not aware of any matches you have had in your past Don.
I would expect you to have experience with ring fighting to make such a comment on it not being combative.
What do you have to compare it to?
I mean what fighting experience do you have?
I don't recall you ever saying you had any when we spoke years ago.
Or did you get this idea of "The enviroment in the ring is not combat." from a book or video tape or maybe a seminar?

thanks,
ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Cryozombie]

Or did you get this idea of "The enviroment in the ring is not combat." from a book or video tape or maybe a seminar?

thanks,
ralph severe, kamiyama

Ralph, forgive my lack of experience when I speak, but this is my take on that...

In the ring, you are fighting... it is like a Duel. Two opponenets "square up" prepare to fight, fight, until one submits.

While that is certainly a fight... its not "Real" in the sense that in a confrontation, one party typicaly wants to fight, the other may not... add in variables that dont come into play in the ring like one fighter turning and running, or blindsiding you with a handful of gravel... picking up a stick or a rock... having his friends jump in and help, drawing a knife or gun if the fight isnt going his way, biting your ear off, a cop driving by, someone gets killed, you snap bones, break kneecaps, etc...

It is a different animal.

I am lucky that I have only been in a few real fights... Hell, I fought in more tournaments in my hapkido days than I have been in real fights... But I am also a Biker, I hang out in Biker bars, and I have seen my fair share of "Real" fights... and they never seem to go down the way a fight occurs in the ring. Aside from the occasional pair of drunk frat boys... I have never seen a "Duel" type fight on the street, the way it does in the ring. Maybe some of our LEO friends on the board could add their expeirence responding to fights on the street...

 

[Enson]

Hence, (trying to rap this up in a hurry) we should get rid of the idea that someone should "win" in a sparring match and try to prevent people from being able to recognize who is better than who in training. And we should try a variety of situations and rules, none of them enough for people to start reallly adapting to the rules. For example, half speed trainign with goggles on and taps to the eyes being permited might make people concious of how oepn they leave themselves to an eye gouge while doing scenario training where a few students in a teaching role may jump in unexpectedly or produce weapons unexpectedly.

i agree. that is exactly why i enjoy scenario training more. "what do i do now" training. its easy just to start wrestling and trying to show that you are better than helping each other out.
peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Don wrote, "The enviroment in the ring is not combat."

Could you please give a few accounts on your personal involvment or experiece with ring fighting for us. I'm not aware of any matches you have had in your past Don.
I would expect you to have experience with ring fighting to make such a comment on it not being combative.
What do you have to compare it to?
I mean what fighting experience do you have?
I don't recall you ever saying you had any when we spoke years ago.
Or did you get this idea of "The enviroment in the ring is not combat." from a book or video tape or maybe a seminar?

thanks,
ralph severe, kamiyama

Are you saying that because of your experience in real combat, you are able to jump to the conclusion that ring fighting is the same as real world confrontations?

 

[ninhito]

hey i have a question. Whats the difference in Taijutsu that was taught from Hatsumi and the Toshinden and other hand-to-hand combat that is in ninjutsu.

 

[r.severe]

In the ring, you are fighting... it is like a Duel. Two opponenets "square up" prepare to fight, fight, until one submits.
**ky, yes, I would agree from my experience sparring 1,000s of times.. ******

While that is certainly a fight... its not "Real" in the sense that in a confrontation, one party typicaly wants to fight, the other may not... add in variables that dont come into play in the ring like one fighter turning and running, or blindsiding you with a handful of gravel... picking up a stick or a rock... having his friends jump in and help, drawing a knife or gun if the fight isnt going his way, biting your ear off, a cop driving by, someone gets killed, you snap bones, break kneecaps, etc...
**ky, yes I will agree. But during a match or sparring it can be taken to levels of ‘fear’ or ‘stress’ where you experience a fight. Getting hit in the face is getting hit in the face.. it really doesn’t matter…
But yes, throwing in the level of ‘pragmatic’ use of your skills does change the game, this comes from my personal experience and not from books, tapes of seminars…. been there and done that a few times more than a few..*****

But what does this have to do with someone saying something without having experience? This was my question.
My opinion would be they should say, what I've seen, what I've read, what I've watched on TV.. etc.. other than coming across as experienced fighters.
This was just my point.
The web gives way to forums and people abuse them in many ways acting out many fantasy type macho fighters.. when in fact they haven't even been in one or two.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[r.severe]

Are you saying that because of your experience in real combat, you are able to jump to the conclusion that ring fighting is the same as real world confrontations?

**ky, I am not jumping to any conclusions at all.
I just asked what experience does this person have to make the comments they made about sparring or fighting.****

hey i have a question. Whats the difference in Taijutsu that was taught from Hatsumi and the Toshinden and other hand-to-hand combat that is in ninjutsu.

**ky, Hatsumi sensei teaches what was handed down to him by his teachers. He lacks real fight time himself. So you have made up 'feelings' of how one 'believes' a fight should be while teaching combative arts.
So what I have experienced with him was he does things in a stop and go manner losing the flow and chaos of the fight.
I know nothing of Toshinden.
Hand to Hand in Ninpo Bugei comes mainly from Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu The few exceptions of techniques of escape and evasion from Togakure ryu.****

ralph severe kamiyama

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

**ky, Hatsumi sensei teaches what was handed down to him by his teachers. He lacks real fight time himself. So you have made up 'feelings' of how one 'believes' a fight should be while teaching combative arts.
So what I have experienced with him was he does things in a stop and go manner losing the flow and chaos of the fight.

Is it really that hard for you to see beyond the stop and go part of training?

 

[Blind]

IMO, if you imagine Hatsumi is lacking in real fight experience it is only fair that you go to Japan and teach him about it, after all he introduced you to the schools you are teaching right? He might even pay you for the training.(I am sure you had to pay him for yours)