How much Sparring?

Shogun

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I'm sure its been asked before, but I couldnt find the thread.

How many of you do sparring in your Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/etc classes? by sparring, I include freestyle scenarios, striking with gloves, grappling, randori, etc

I know some schools dont really do it, and some do too much. There is two schools in my area, which I go to both occasionally. one does almost none, another has an entire day for it. We use pads, and we do Randori Grappling.
 

Enson

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we do quite a bit of scenario sparring. unless we are fully padded we don't go full speed for fear of hurting our sparring partner. we also use sparring for sword training with the shinai. sparring is common in our school.


peace
 
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Genin Andrew

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Sparring is a significant aspect of Ninjukai, its very common. Its a great way to learn the effectiveness of your techniques but more importantly to learn how to use your feet and understand the flow of your body under pressure. Sparring is done with all weapons as well, and there's nothing like watching some good senior students battle it out with Bo's...beautiful.

-andrew
 
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AnimEdge

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We do sparring quite often in ours, we did it yesterday :p we dont manly use protection becouse we are manly going for locks more than strikes but sometime we pull out the pads
 

r.severe

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Classes at My Academy,

Sparring is a word that can be confusing..
But..

Classes here drill ....
1, free combative concepts or Randori Geiko from set attacks against them unarmed or with weaponry...
2, ground engagements against one or more attackers unarmed or with weaponry.. using only locks or submissions... or strikes added, Randori...
3, standing engagements against one or more attackers unarmed or with weaponry.. using only locks or submissions... or with strikes added, Randori....

In my opinion sparring should be very light for warm-up at the beginning of classes... never to get out of hand or out of control to the point the student is not learning or researching.. with protective gloves and or shin and instep protection on.

Mouth guards are a must at all time during any free training where the student is exploring their skills openly.

When students vote on harder sparring it is don’t with weaponry with proper protective gear and with unarmed gear..

In my opinion hard sparring should not be done over 5% of the training base outline monthly.

ralph severe, kamiyama
 
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Shogun

Shogun

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We grapple regularly, using mainly Takagi Yoshin ryu technique. I wouldnt say it doesnt improve the curriculum. in fact I would say the opposite. The human body must learn how a technique is performed when the opponent is not compliant in order to perfect it. We dont do striking sparring regularly, because with gloves on and at full contact, most of the strikes become brutally innefective, or simply cant be used without injury. Grappling however, using the Jime Waza and Gatame Waza, is very useful. BJJ guys spar every class period. so do Judo guys. The technique evolves when the practitioner finds flaws or secrets of a certain technique or Kata.

I have heard from people from the other Kan, but I havent heard much (or any) from the Booj guys.
 

Don Roley

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Shogun said:
I wouldnt say it doesnt improve the curriculum. in fact I would say the opposite. The human body must learn how a technique is performed when the opponent is not compliant in order to perfect it.

I have to take issue with this.

In the Bujinkan, I learn that you take the path of least resistance. So if the other guy is "not compliant" as you say it is, you change to a technique where he is. In trying to resist one technique, he leaves himself open to another. Trying to do a technique even if the opponent is trying to stop you from doing that particular technique is against the principles of Kyojitsu tenkan ho.

If you train in the traditional, Japanese methods you learn this as part of kata while training on a weekly basis with a student senior to you. They set up an attack that is perfect for the technique that you are expect to use. If you do not do the technique as is expected, you will not take the person down. If you leave yourself open to an attack, you will get smacked. kata training can be very frustrating and painfull if done right. And it trains you to move in certain ways rather than in just any method that conforms to the artificial rules of sparring.

This whole mess has been discussed before. Take a look at the following for the run down.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15532&page=2
 
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Shogun

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With most of the Taijutsu curriculum I totally agree. resistant opponents (in training) only hinder your training. However, for the grappling techniques(jime waza etc), it is unrealistic to train against a compliant opponent. I dont know if anyone here on the Ninjutsu forum grapples regularly, but without the proper technique against a non-compliant opponent, most of the stuff doesnt work. using Atemi sometimes doesnt work during grappling either. I tried aginst a wrestler once, and he simply pinned my legs and arms. you have to get into a position to use Atemi before you can actually make it effective. This may not be the tradtitional methods of training, but I find it much more practical.

thanks for your time,

KE
 

Don Roley

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Shogun said:
However, for the grappling techniques(jime waza etc), it is unrealistic to train against a compliant opponent. I dont know if anyone here on the Ninjutsu forum grapples regularly, but without the proper technique against a non-compliant opponent, most of the stuff doesnt work.

Based on your experience I assume.
So what is your experience in Bujinkan Taijutsu. Since I mentioned the way things were done in Japan, how much training have you had in Japan or under a Japanese instructor teaching in that method?

I was under the impression that your main experience with Bujinkan was through a video home black belt course. Do you have experience with the way the Japanese have traditionally trained in small groups of long term students?
 
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AaronLucia

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In the 3 months of Ninjutsu that iv'e taken, we haven't really done any sparring. :p

We mostly do the slow attack/defend thing.
 
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Shogun

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I was under the impression that your main experience with Bujinkan was through a video home black belt course
Incorrect.
My training in Taijutsu is done at a local booj dojo. My main training is in Shin Ryu Aiki at the Tsubaki Kannagara Jinjya. The HSC are just aides.
I only say that grappling should be done in the form of randori sometimes, because I sometimes compete in MMA events, I have grappled with BJJ guys, and the stuff i have learned without sparring , doesnt work for me.
In Aiki and in most of the Ten Ryaku no maki I have done, I dont think non-compliant opponents should be used, because although a street comflict might seem non-compliant, it doesnt happen that way. people dont usually establish a strong base, and all that.
Do you have experience with the way the Japanese have traditionally trained in small groups of long term students?
No. Can you explain please? thanks, Don.
 

r.severe

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"done in Japan"

I have spoken with 5 people who have traveled to Japan and trained in the Bujinkan Dojo there in the past two years.
None seen or had any report about sparring when asked.
Meaning they never seen any
So where is the sparring being domne if not in the main Dojo in Japan of the Bujinkan Dojo?

I was in Japan in 1992 for 30 days.
I spoke with well over 40 members of the Bujinkan during beers, tea, food and training.. none had any experience sparring at any Bujinkan Dojo or have seen any.
So where is the sparring being domne if not in the main Dojo in Japan of the Bujinkan Dojo?

Just a simple question...

ralph severe, kamiyama
 

Don Roley

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r.severe said:
"done in Japan"

I have spoken with 5 people who have traveled to Japan and trained in the Bujinkan Dojo there in the past two years.
None seen or had any report about sparring when asked.
Meaning they never seen any
So where is the sparring being domne if not in the main Dojo in Japan of the Bujinkan Dojo?

Did I say there was sparring done in Japan? Go back please and try to read what I wrote instead of leaping at the chance to cause trouble.

Perhaps the question should be why people like Hatsumi and Nagato, who have greater experience in fighting in the ring than any of us, are now not running sparring in their classes. What are they doing instead?
 
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Shogun

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I figured thats what you meant, Don. It sounded like u were getting at the fact that sparring was not done.
Hatsumi in-ring? not familiar with this. info please?


Once again, though. I am only talking about grappling. I don't know how many of the Bujinkan guys have sparred (grappled) a competent grappler like a college wrestler or Brazillian Jiu jitsu guy....You can learn the method and concept of a particular grappling technique thru Kata, but it is limited when facing a ground expert who has sparring experience. Just IMO.
 

Don Roley

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Shogun said:
Hatsumi in-ring? not familiar with this. info please?

What!!!! You are not aware that Hatsumi was a fifth dan in Judo before he started looking for someone like Takamatsu, and that to get to that rank he had to go through a lot of bouts on the mat? I can imagine if you did not know that the rules in judo at the time would make even the UFC freak out, but I would think that everyone would know that Hatumi was an ex-judoka and Nagato was a kickboxing champion in Japan. They both went through a lot of pounding and being forced into unconciousness and having seen both sides of the debate they now do not run sparring in their classes.

Of course, they do not think that any situation where two guys getting into a ring is anywhere near the same as when you lover's jelous ex-boyfriend jumps you from behind in the parking lot. But I did see one guy who has claimed to have had hundreds of "fights" get one of his students to post how he had witnessed one of these "fights" and how both guys SIGNED LEGAL PAPERS before getting it on. Thus their "fight" was just another variation of sparring. So if we are to say that situation is a fight, then we should give credit to Hatsumi and Nagato as being even better at fighting than anyone else here.

As for the methods used in Japan, it is hard to describe. But let us just say that if you work out with a senior Japanese with whom you have a good relationship with he will not "just let" you do the move. That is not the same as saying that he will not "let" you do the throw, he will not flip himself, but will not go if the technique has flaws he can exploit. He might also do things like reach gently up and touch your eyebrow. Useless in a match and will not get you anywhere. But it lets you know that you left yourself open to an eye gouge.

There are drawbacks if not done correctly. As a matter of fact, I think I am going to have to have a talk with one of my juniors in my dojo who can't lay a finger on me but seems to spend a lot of time trying to set up a counter attack to my technique rather than give me a good initial attack to work off of. It usually takes several months before you prove yourself worthy of such attention and are not just strutting around waiting to teach. And since most people who come in train with others that came in with them, your teacher may never have trained much with a Japanese partner in Japan.
 

Enson

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Don Roley said:
But I did see one guy who has claimed to have had hundreds of "fights" get one of his students to post how he had witnessed one of these "fights" and how both guys SIGNED LEGAL PAPERS before getting it on. Thus their "fight" was just another variation of sparring. So if we are to say that situation is a fight, then we should give credit to Hatsumi and Nagato as being even better at fighting than anyone else here.

.
:lurk:
i think controlled sparring is great. even if its just for cardio and to break a good sweat. i do personally enjoy more scenario training. with this you can act out a situation even with multiple attackers and perfect your technique. you can pause, go back and even fast foward. much like a dvd!;)
 
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Shogun

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I did know that Hatsumi did Judo, and went looking for something else (Taijutsu) because how easily americans and big Japanese could muscle in and out of Judo techniques (was that right?) I wasnt aware of the old Judo rules, though. At the Tsubaki grand shrine, we train in a traditional Japanese manner. Barrish sensei and his senior students will do much the same thing. I call them love taps. after a throw, we will either immobilize them with a pin, or simply stand above them in the correct position until they arent a threat, or retreat. if there is an opening, we will lightly kick, pinch, punch, or even slap, just to show flaws, openings, and the like.
again though, I only say (for me anyway) that grappling using the grappling techniques helps in the event of tangling with a wrestler or BJJ guy (or gal) which in the states, is very common these days. The BJJ schools have about 20-60 people attending them, and it only takes 5-8 months of training to be able to completely control a person on the ground. BJJ doesnt put as much value into character and disclipline like the Asian arts do. So some BJJers think they are badasses 'cause they can roll good. and sometimes they are. I always say, It's better to know something works, than to hope something works. It cant hurt, right?
 

Cryozombie

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Shogun,

at our dojo we do randori at the end of class for a week or so before we test, because in order to pass a test, after all the "formal" testing, we need to complete randori as well.

Thats about the extent of it in our dojo.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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Love sparring, but things tend to get out of hand when it evolves into giving and taking, and it's easy to deceive yourself into thinking it's the same as the real thing...
 

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