How much leeway in changing movements to discover poomsae applications?

andyjeffries

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In another thread SJON posted his video of a Taegeuk 7 application. I thought it was worth breaking out discussion about the video/concepts in to its own thread rather than derail the topic of that one.

Earlier in the thread I mentioned that, in my opinion, Kukki TKD's biggest failing apart from the general lack of emphasis on hand technique is the lack of any substantial syllabus after 1st Dan. An obvious area for improvement would be to look deeper into things like pattern application and self-defence. For want of an "official" syllabus of this type, I spent many years and a lot of research and effort developing my own.

With kind permission from the Mods, here is an example of the kind of thing I mean:


Thanks for posting the video Simon, it was very interesting to watch. I watched the others posted on your YouTube channel too..

However, I thought your book/concepts stemmed from the fact that there are alternate or hidden applications to the exact movements done in Kukki-Taekwondo patterns? Maybe I've misunderstood and you consider some artistic licence to be acceptable in doing the movements differently to achieve your alternate application. Your website states "The four [snip-to-remove-advertising] DVDs show step-by-step and full-speed applications for every sequence of the Taegeuk patterns."

The Wikipedia entry on Bunkai says "Bunkai (分解?), literally meaning "analysis"[1] or "disassembly",[2] is a term used in Japanese martial arts referring to the application of fighting techniques extracted from the moves of a "form" (kata). Bunkai is usually performed with a partner or a group of partners which execute predefined attacks, and the student performing the kata responds with defenses, counterattacks, or other actions, based on a part of the kata. This allows the student in the middle to understand what the movements in kata are meant to accomplish. It may also illustrate how to improve technique by adjusting distances, time moves properly, and adapt a technique depending on the size of an opponent."

That seems to describe how to use the exact moves in the poomsae (kata) and only adapting the technique depending on the opponent's size.

In the video you posted, the palm block goes to the head instead of solar plexus (different height, same striking area) and the backfist front strike has become an inner forearm block (a completely different movement with a different striking part and direction)?

So, could you explain your concepts/understanding of these applications of Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae? I understood from the sub-title of your book ("the patterns of Kukki Taekwondo as a self-defense system") that you used the patterns as-is and showed alternative or hidden applications, rather than making new sequences loosely based on the patterns.

And to anyone else, when you are explaining applications of the poomsae to your students, how much leeway do you feel is right to take in explaining how it could be used?

Personally I treat poomsae as a health benefit (like Tai Chi) and a Mr Miyagi style "muscle memory" building exercise and not a tool for describing real world self-defence/applications. For those we do self-defence training and step sparring.
 
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K-man

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With bunkai you can do whatever you choose, but if you look at your form as a fighting system it doesn't really make a lot of sense to change the target. Your form, if taught the way it was designed, gives you the angle and direction of your strike. If you are going to change the basic structure you may as well just use your 'step sparring'. If in your explanation of the form you are using 'blocks', I might suggest you are miles from the real technique of the form.

As to the videos and explanations, top marks. Anything that provides your students with a realistic explanation is fantastic and if it can be shown to be effective by pressure testing, even better. I require my guys to do a similar thing for their grading, just that they have to work out what it means for themselves. I just help them pressure test.
:asian:
 

Dirty Dog

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I'll hunt up the links when I'm on a computer, rather than a phone but there are YouTube clips taken from a KKW-released DVD series that teaches forms, and has an "applications" section at the end if each. These applications don't match the exact movements of the forms. I recall seeing stances reversed. I also recall seeing the double side kick from Koryo being demonstrated as using the first kick as a defensive technique - jamming an incoming kick - followed by the second kick as an offensive technique.



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dancingalone

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With bunkai you can do whatever you choose, but if you look at your form as a fighting system it doesn't really make a lot of sense to change the target. Your form, if taught the way it was designed, gives you the angle and direction of your strike. If you are going to change the basic structure you may as well just use your 'step sparring'. If in your explanation of the form you are using 'blocks', I might suggest you are miles from the real technique of the form.

This has been an item of discussion over the years on the TKD board. I think the general consensus is that the KKW forms were not designed to be fighting systems in of themselves as arguably the karate kata are. Instead they're meant to be catalogs of discrete techniques - they curate movements but not set 'official' tactical usages behind the movements. So any efforts to derive practical application out of the poomsae will inevitably mean the individual is bringing much of himself into the picture. As it should be?
 

dancingalone

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I'll hunt up the links when I'm on a computer, rather than a phone but there are YouTube clips taken from a KKW-released DVD series that teaches forms, and has an "applications" section at the end if each. These applications don't match the exact movements of the forms. I recall seeing stances reversed. I also recall seeing the double side kick from Koryo being demonstrated as using the first kick as a defensive technique - jamming an incoming kick - followed by the second kick as an offensive technique.

Would be very interested in seeing this whenever you can get to it. Or just knowing the name of the series would be great all by itself.
 

Earl Weiss

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The answer is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen so called "Real Applications" Morphed to where the motions are unrecognizeable. Some justify this by saying moves were shown backward to disguise the Real Applications. Or some variatyion on this.

So, as I have stated before, learning "An" application is a tool to help understand the concept.

Initialy you need to focus on an application to facilitate understanding of the motion.

Later if you focus solely:
A text application; or
A "Real" applicatio;or
A "Hidden" application

Your focus is too narow.
 

Gnarlie

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Would be very interested in seeing this whenever you can get to it. Or just knowing the name of the series would be great all by itself.

Colleague of mine recently returned from Kukkiwon with a set published by Dart Taekwondo with Osung Media. They are not the ones with the circle that are on Youtube, they are newer, have camera angle choices etc. There's some application stuff there but it's limited.

Gnarlie
 

Gnarlie

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On topic, I find myself more and more finding Poomsae in my self defence, rather than the other way around. I believe the Poomsae teach principles of movement rather than individual techniques, and that means every technique is an application of the principles poomsae illustrates.

Looking for direct application of the motions isn't a fools errand though, as the journey required to reach such a conclusion brings its own reward.

Therefore: change it as much as you like, as long as it works and applies the principles of Taekwondo motion as illustrated via the poomsae and their philosophy.

Gnarlie
 

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Would be very interested in seeing this whenever you can get to it. Or just knowing the name of the series would be great all by itself.

Here's Keumgang:

Here's Koryo:

Here's Taegeuk 1-4:

Here's Taeguk 5-8:

The applications portion of these videos is really very limited, showing only one or two combinations from each form, but there are clear changes between the way the moves are performed in poomsae and in the applications.
You can tell which combination is being demonstrated, certainly, but they're not exact copies by any means.
To me, this makes sense. Forms are, to some extent, stylized. And they certainly don't teach all variations. For example, students practice outside middle blocks while practicing poomsae, but never learn to perform an outside high block (from poomsae). This certainly shouldn't be interpreted as meaning the block can never be used to protect the face...
 
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MAist25

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Taekwondo Poomse don't have hidden applications. Anything you "discover" in poomse is simply your own creation. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, but it wasn't the intention of the people who created those forms. By the way, I am specifically talking about the Taegeuk and Palgwe series of poomse and the current WTF Dan poomse.
 

K-man

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This has been an item of discussion over the years on the TKD board. I think the general consensus is that the KKW forms were not designed to be fighting systems in of themselves as arguably the karate kata are. Instead they're meant to be catalogs of discrete techniques - they curate movements but not set 'official' tactical usages behind the movements. So any efforts to derive practical application out of the poomsae will inevitably mean the individual is bringing much of himself into the picture. As it should be?
I'm not at all familiar with TKD forms. I was under the impression that they were from Shotokan karate. Were they modified since that time? Even more pertinent, were any kata purely developed for TKD?
:asian:
 

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I'm not at all familiar with TKD forms. I was under the impression that they were from Shotokan karate. Were they modified since that time? Even more pertinent, were any kata purely developed for TKD?
:asian:

The pinan forms were taken from Shotokan and are still used by some Tang Soo Do and Soo Bak Do schools.
One of the first things done by the members of the unification effort was to develop specifically Korean forms. The first TKD-specific forms were the Chang Hon forms used by the ITF and the Palgwae forms used by the KTA. Following the Palgwae forms, the KTA adopted the Yudanja forms that are still used today, and developed the Taegeuk forms, which replaced the Palgwae forms in the KKW curriculum.
I think there are relatively few TKD schools still using the Pinan forms.
 

K-man

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The pinan forms were taken from Shotokan and are still used by some Tang Soo Do and Soo Bak Do schools.
One of the first things done by the members of the unification effort was to develop specifically Korean forms. The first TKD-specific forms were the Chang Hon forms used by the ITF and the Palgwae forms used by the KTA. Following the Palgwae forms, the KTA adopted the Yudanja forms that are still used today, and developed the Taegeuk forms, which replaced the Palgwae forms in the KKW curriculum.
I think there are relatively few TKD schools still using the Pinan forms.
Pinan Kata were specifically designed to teach techniques, combinations and movement, unlike the forms that were imported into karate from China which are fighting systems. In the case of the Chang Hon, Palgway, Yudanja or Palgwae forms, are any of the people who developed those forms still alive? What I'm getting at is if there are people still around who understand how and why the forms were created, that would certainly define what the forms were trying to achieve,
:asian:
 

Gnarlie

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For example, students practice outside middle blocks while practicing poomsae, but never learn to perform an outside high block (from poomsae). This certainly shouldn't be interpreted as meaning the block can never be used to protect the face...

There's one in Taegeuk Yuk Jang after the first Dollyo Chagi... but I get your point, the principle of outside blocking is transferable to different heights.


Gnarlie
 

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Pinan Kata were specifically designed to teach techniques, combinations and movement, unlike the forms that were imported into karate from China which are fighting systems. In the case of the Chang Hon, Palgway, Yudanja or Palgwae forms, are any of the people who developed those forms still alive? What I'm getting at is if there are people still around who understand how and why the forms were created, that would certainly define what the forms were trying to achieve,
:asian:

Yes, some of those involved are still alive. The KKW has always stated that there are no "hidden" or "secret" techniques in the forms. They are intended to serve as something of a "catalog" of techniques and to teach movement, balance, timing, etc. P
ersonally, however, I find it impossible to practice them without considering ways the various individual and combination techniques could be used.
I think there is a difference between looking for "secrets" in the forms, and considering practical applications of the specific techniques learned from the forms. For example, the first technique in Palgwae 1 and Taegeuk 1 is the same - a low block. Having learned and practiced that movement in the forms, it's not a "secret" to point out that the exact same movement can be used as a strike.
 

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There's one in Taegeuk Yuk Jang after the first Dollyo Chagi... but I get your point, the principle of outside blocking is transferable to different heights.
Gnarlie

Exactly. The forms teach principles, not all the possible variants. :)
For example, the block you mention is done palm out, not palm in, so it varies in two respects from the basic outside middle block.
 

chrispillertkd

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That seems to describe how to use the exact moves in the poomsae (kata) and only adapting the technique depending on the opponent's size.

In the video you posted, the palm block goes to the head instead of solar plexus (different height, same striking area) and the backfist front strike has become an inner forearm block (a completely different movement with a different striking part and direction)?

So, could you explain your concepts/understanding of these applications of Kukki-Taekwondo poomsae? I understood from the sub-title of your book ("the patterns of Kukki Taekwondo as a self-defense system") that you used the patterns as-is and showed alternative or hidden applications, rather than making new sequences loosely based on the patterns.

I haven't seen the video SJON posted but I will say that I have seen karateka demonstrate bunkai that range from very closely adhering to the movements from their kata to the applications being (to me) unrecognizable. This has been a point of contention for me in the "real application" discussions. If you're going to show an application of a technique then you should, theoretically, show an application of that technique. I don't have any problem with people coming up with different applications but at a certain point some of them seem to change the technique so much it's no longer what is in the pattern.

There should also be a recognition that the "surface" applications can be as useful as the "hidden" ones. What matters is the context in which they are used. I remember seeing a side by side comparison of a particular blocking technique. The first picture had the block used as a block. The second picture had it being used as a joint lock. The caption said something along the lines of "Which is more realistic?" Well, that really depends on if you're being punched at or grabbed. You hear a lot from the alternative application people about how the techniques found in patterns aren't realistic. But I've seen just as many unrealistic/dangerous/ineffective alternative applications. What matters isn't whether the technique is "hidden" or not. What matters is whether or not you're going to put the time in to studying the techniques, practicing them, and understanding when, where, and how they're supposed to be used in the first place before you look for alternative ways to use them.

And to anyone else, when you are explaining applications of the poomsae to your students, how much leeway do you feel is right to take in explaining how it could be used?

I always explain the "obvious" application but will sometimes also show them an additional application or two, depending on their rank, ability, etc. I try to keep as close to the original body mechanics and "shape" of the technique as I can when doing alternative applications. Ultimately, students should be able to transport many, if not most, of the applications into their pre-arranged sparring (step sparring) and/or ho sin sul, IMO.

Pax,

Chris
 
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Gnarlie

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Exactly. The forms teach principles, not all the possible variants. :)
For example, the block you mention is done palm out, not palm in, so it varies in two respects from the basic outside middle block.

I'd go as far as to say that the forms teach all of the motion principles necessary to achieve what Krav Maga calls the 360 degree defence, using outer and inner forearms. But not just that, they teach how to turn hip into those motions, and how those motions can be combined with stepping to maximise power and control distance, for example.

Gnarlie
 

chrispillertkd

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Here's Keumgang:

Here's Koryo:

Here's Taegeuk 1-4:

Here's Taeguk 5-8:

The applications portion of these videos is really very limited, showing only one or two combinations from each form, but there are clear changes between the way the moves are performed in poomsae and in the applications.
You can tell which combination is being demonstrated, certainly, but they're not exact copies by any means.
To me, this makes sense. Forms are, to some extent, stylized. And they certainly don't teach all variations. For example, students practice outside middle blocks while practicing poomsae, but never learn to perform an outside high block (from poomsae). This certainly shouldn't be interpreted as meaning the block can never be used to protect the face...

I actually think the inclusion of a limited "application" section for each pattern is a good idea on the KKW's part, although I wish they had done more than just one or two examples from each poomse. I was a little disappointed by the example in Koryo, though. Am I missing what the first side kick is supposed to be doing? All it looks like is a feint low before a high kick (which is fine, I'm just curious). It doesn't act as a check on the opponent's kick, as far as I can see.

The use of 응용동작 in the videos is interesting. It translates, as far as I can see, to "applied action," which is somewhat different from the "analysis" translation one gets from "bunkai," IMHO.

Pax,

Chris
 
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