How many of you BJJ guys train hip throws (Ogashi)?

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by Alan Smithee, Nov 23, 2019.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    You can still get choked after a failed hip throw while standing. I call it the spider monkey because some a-hole jumps on your back and makes your life hell.

    The point is if you screw up the hip throw, it's open season because you've given someone your back, which is probably the most dominant position in grappling. You might as well put a "please submit me" sign on your back, because anyone who knows what they're doing will capitalize on your screw up.

    Like DB said, there's safer takedowns. The DLT is so common because its relatively low risk, and pretty easy to pull off.
     
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  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I think it should be the other way around. If someone

    - takes my back, I can have many counters.
    - puts a reverse head lock (guillotine) on me, his body weight can crash on top of my neck until I'm flat on the ground. No matter how strong that I'm, my neck is not strong enough to handle his full body weight.
     
  3. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This is why IMO the head lock is better than the hip throw. Instead of giving your opponent a chance to choke you. You can choke him first. Before your arm can lock on your opponent's head, your forearm can hit on the back of his head and knock him out half way already. Head lock has integrated the striking into the throw and hit throw has not. The hip throw is more sport than combat. In a fist flying environment, the hip throw is too civilized and conservative.

    For any throw, if you enter through the mirror stance angle (you have right forward, your opponent has left forward), your opponent can't take your back.

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    The headlock is actually easier to counter than the hip throw. It's one of the first counter moves a white belt learns in Bjj, and it's probably that way in other MAs.
     
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  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    There are over 20 different ways to counter a "head lock". But if you can crash your opponent's spine "side way" (not forward), none of his counter will work.

     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2019
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Spoken with a clear lack of understanding.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's overly binary. Nearly everyone ever born, at adult height, is between those two measures. I can hip throw people shorter than me.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. I think, with reliability factored in (the chance of getting it successfully), risk is higher for the hip throw. I still prefer them, but I feel less threatened by them, too.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Of course you can. But you are not taking advantage on the nature physics.

    The following are natural physics.

    - A tall person apply foot sweep on a short guy.
    - A short guy uses shoulder throw on a tall guy.
    - A strong guy uses casting throw on a light weight guy.
    - ...
     
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You have to be strong to throw your opponent by "casting".

     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If you've ever been thrown well in a hip throw by someone taller (at the hip), you know there's an advantage to being able to get in under someone and send them flying.

    Oh, and hip throws and shoulder throws on someone much taller become easy to counter. There's a range - from a bit shorter to somewhat taller - where it's pretty easily accessible. Outside that range, not so much.

    You're being binary about this. Someone an inch shorter at the hip doesn't present much different challenge for those throws.
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I rarely cast. Just not much part of my training.
     
  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Sometime MA discussion has to be binary and you have to choose side. If I say,

    -"Do whatever you think is right for you."
    - "Everything is just a trade off.
    - "There is no absolute right, and there is no absolute wrong."
    - "Sometime right is wrong, and sometime wrong is right."
    - "I don't like to ague. most of the time I just have no option."
    - ...

    You may say, "If you shut up, nobody will think that you are mute."
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a false dichotomy, John. It's possible to recognize that nuance exists without accepting everything without question.
     
  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Do you agree with the following binary statement.

    - Narrow stance is risky for double legs and foot sweep.
    - Wide stance is risky for single leg and leg spring.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with it as a general rule. I don’t think it’s always entirely binary - there are many more factors at play.
     

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